Discussion:
New icon images
andrewemt
2014-08-21 16:32:31 UTC
Permalink
Greetings, all.

I was just reading some archives of the mailing list, and came upon the discussion last year of defining new APRS symbol code meanings and creating new symbol icon images.

Has any progress been made on that?

Just curious. 

Andrew Pavlin,  KA2DDO
author of YAAC
SARTrack Admin
2014-08-21 16:37:24 UTC
Permalink
On 21/08/2014 18:32, andrewemt wrote:
> Greetings, all.
>
> I was just reading some archives of the mailing list, and came upon the
> discussion last year of defining new APRS symbol code meanings and
> creating new symbol icon images.
>
> Has any progress been made on that?

I second that question...

Bart

--

SARTrack Developer and CEO
Heikki Hannikainen
2014-08-21 20:23:07 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Aug 2014, andrewemt wrote:

> Greetings, all.
>
> I was just reading some archives of the mailing list, and came upon the discussion last year of defining new APRS
> symbol code meanings and creating new symbol icon images.
>
> Has any progress been made on that?

I've mostly finished the work on a new symbol set. I'll release it first
on aprs.fi (pretty soon), and then open-source the data. The new ones look
pretty good on modern displays, even when rotated as bitmaps:

https://twitter.com/aprsfi/status/502348470465097728


That effort, however, only targeted the old symbol set, and none of the
new ones, mostly because drawing a lot of additional symbols takes a lot
of additional time, and it took a lot of time to just do the old ones
(some 30-50 minutes per symbol! and could easily use more to make them
better). I'm not quite sure it makes sense to put a lot of effort in a
huge granularity of different symbol graphics like this:

HOUSE: #-
/- = House
\- = (was HF)
5- = 50 Hz mains power
6- = 60 Hz mains power

... are there any areas where one house has 50 Hz and the next house
suddenly has 60 Hz? What is the relevancy of this?

B- = Backup Battery Power
C- = Club, as in Ham club
E- = Emergency power
G- = Geothermal
H- = Hydro powered
O- = Operator Present
S- = Solar Powered
W- = Wind powered

... huh? 9 more houses to draw, while somehow signaling which sort of
power source each house has? Will there also be a separate for a
Hydro-powered house which has an operator present, VHF yagi antenna and a
dog?

I'd suggest this sort of granularity and detail could go to the free-form
comment text. We'll need to hire a full-time symbol graphic artist if we
go to details like this. :)

The "generalize old symbols" direction would be more useful. Like when the
current symbolsX.txt redefines \h, which used to be 'ham store', as just
'store', which is more widely useful.

- Hessu
Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
2014-08-21 20:37:34 UTC
Permalink
On 8/21/2014 4:23 PM, Heikki Hannikainen wrote:
>
> I've mostly finished the work on a new symbol set. I'll release it
> first on aprs.fi (pretty soon), and then open-source the data. The new
> ones look pretty good on modern displays, even when rotated as bitmaps:
>
> https://twitter.com/aprsfi/status/502348470465097728

So are they only going to be bitmaps or will they be available in a
vector form as well?

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
Heikki Hannikainen
2014-08-22 04:25:45 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 21 Aug 2014, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:

> On 8/21/2014 4:23 PM, Heikki Hannikainen wrote:
>>
>> I've mostly finished the work on a new symbol set. I'll release it first on
>> aprs.fi (pretty soon), and then open-source the data. The new ones look
>> pretty good on modern displays, even when rotated as bitmaps:
>>
>> https://twitter.com/aprsfi/status/502348470465097728
>
> So are they only going to be bitmaps or will they be available in a vector
> form as well?

They'll come with source code (vector form, .ai), so that they can be
edited and developed further, and exported again in other resolutions.

- Hessu
SARTrack Admin
2014-08-22 05:11:49 UTC
Permalink
I see that you actually rotate your icons... Its a nice idea, and when
it comes to an airplane icon, which is an arrow anyway, that looks logical.
But when it is a car, you only only have to rotate it, but also flip it
when it goes in the oposite direction of the original drawing.
And how do you deal with icons which realy should never rotate (house),
but the direction data may not be exactly zero (and this may happen). Do
you have additional data attached to an icon saying, 'never rotate'?

In my Windows program, I would have to completely rewrite the way Icons
are stored and drawn, to make anything like that possible..

PS, changing the format of the icons is extremely simple:
This incredible Image viewer and manipulation program,
http://www.irfanview.com/ can batch-convert anything in a few seconds
(and its free).
I use it all the time.

Bart

On 22/08/2014 06:25, Heikki Hannikainen wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2014, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
>
>> On 8/21/2014 4:23 PM, Heikki Hannikainen wrote:
>>>
>>> I've mostly finished the work on a new symbol set. I'll release it
>>> first on aprs.fi (pretty soon), and then open-source the data. The
>>> new ones look pretty good on modern displays, even when rotated as
>>> bitmaps:
>>>
>>> https://twitter.com/aprsfi/status/502348470465097728
>>
>> So are they only going to be bitmaps or will they be available in a
>> vector form as well?
>
> They'll come with source code (vector form, .ai), so that they can be
> edited and developed further, and exported again in other resolutions.
>
> - Hessu
>
> _______________________________________________
> aprssig mailing list
> aprssig-***@public.gmane.org
> http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
>

--

SARTrack Developer and CEO
Heikki Hannikainen
2014-08-22 06:05:54 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014, SARTrack Admin wrote:

> I see that you actually rotate your icons... Its a nice idea, and when it
> comes to an airplane icon, which is an arrow anyway, that looks logical.
> But when it is a car, you only only have to rotate it, but also flip it when
> it goes in the oposite direction of the original drawing.

Right. My code flips the airplane too, just to reduce code complexity. :)

For the web site version, all rotations have been pregenerated during the
software build process. It's a lot of little images, 19169 of them
(number of symbols * overlays * rotations).

> And how do you deal with icons which realy should never rotate (house), but
> the direction data may not be exactly zero (and this may happen). Do you have
> additional data attached to an icon saying, 'never rotate'?

I have a map/dictionary/hash of symbols which can be rotated, and the
original direction they're pointing at in the source image. I can publish
that together with the symbols if it's useful.

NSDictionary *initDirectionalSymbols = @{
@"/'": @0,
@"/(": @90,
@"/*": @90,
@"/<": @90,
@"/=": @90,
@"/>": @90,
@"/C": @90,
@"/F": @90,
@"/P": @90,
@"/S": @0,
....

Actually, here's the machine-readable CSV/JSON/XML/YAML -formatted symbol
descriptions index which I published a couple months ago. I should put the
degree values there, maybe. Bob's original list is a bit difficult to use
in an application - whenever there are changes, they need to be manually
merged in each application config. A machine-readable index might be
helpful and easier to synchronize to apps.

https://github.com/hessu/aprs-symbol-index
https://github.com/hessu/aprs-symbol-index/tree/master/generated

- Hessu
Andrew P.
2014-08-22 11:53:12 UTC
Permalink
Any idea when the icon image vector files themselves would be available?

Andrew, KA2DDO

> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:05:54 +0300
> From: hessu-***@public.gmane.org
> To: aprssig-***@public.gmane.org
> Subject: Re: [aprssig] New icon images
>
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2014, SARTrack Admin wrote:
>
> > I see that you actually rotate your icons... Its a nice idea, and when it
> > comes to an airplane icon, which is an arrow anyway, that looks logical.
> > But when it is a car, you only only have to rotate it, but also flip it when
> > it goes in the oposite direction of the original drawing.
>
> Right. My code flips the airplane too, just to reduce code complexity. :)
>
> For the web site version, all rotations have been pregenerated during the
> software build process. It's a lot of little images, 19169 of them
> (number of symbols * overlays * rotations).
>
> > And how do you deal with icons which realy should never rotate (house), but
> > the direction data may not be exactly zero (and this may happen). Do you have
> > additional data attached to an icon saying, 'never rotate'?
>
> I have a map/dictionary/hash of symbols which can be rotated, and the
> original direction they're pointing at in the source image. I can publish
> that together with the symbols if it's useful.
>
> NSDictionary *initDirectionalSymbols = @{
> @"/'": @0,
> @"/(": @90,
> @"/*": @90,
> @"/<": @90,
> @"/=": @90,
> @"/>": @90,
> @"/C": @90,
> @"/F": @90,
> @"/P": @90,
> @"/S": @0,
> ....
>
> Actually, here's the machine-readable CSV/JSON/XML/YAML -formatted symbol
> descriptions index which I published a couple months ago. I should put the
> degree values there, maybe. Bob's original list is a bit difficult to use
> in an application - whenever there are changes, they need to be manually
> merged in each application config. A machine-readable index might be
> helpful and easier to synchronize to apps.
>
> https://github.com/hessu/aprs-symbol-index
> https://github.com/hessu/aprs-symbol-index/tree/master/generated
>
> - Hessu
>
> _______________________________________________
> aprssig mailing list
> aprssig-***@public.gmane.org
> http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
Heikki Hannikainen
2014-08-22 12:28:10 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 22 Aug 2014, Andrew P. wrote:

> Any idea when the icon image vector files themselves would be available?

I'll release them soon after I've published the new symbols on aprs.fi
itself, and in the new aprs.fi iOS app. You know, just so that some other
app doesn't get to publish them first. :) This being a hobby project, I
cannot fix a deadline - I'll release them when they're ready.

- Hessu
Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
2014-08-22 13:42:39 UTC
Permalink
On 8/22/2014 8:28 AM, Heikki Hannikainen wrote:
> ... This being a hobby project, I cannot fix a deadline - I'll
> release them when they're ready.

I will serve no wine before its time. Thanks in advance for the
upcoming contribution Hessu!

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
Gregory A. Carter
2014-08-25 17:09:37 UTC
Permalink
I do just about the same thing, keep track of their initial position prior
to rotating, only they are updatable json files.

Greg


On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 12:05 AM, Heikki Hannikainen <hessu-***@public.gmane.org>
wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Aug 2014, SARTrack Admin wrote:
>
> I see that you actually rotate your icons... Its a nice idea, and when it
>> comes to an airplane icon, which is an arrow anyway, that looks logical.
>> But when it is a car, you only only have to rotate it, but also flip it
>> when it goes in the oposite direction of the original drawing.
>>
>
> Right. My code flips the airplane too, just to reduce code complexity. :)
>
> For the web site version, all rotations have been pregenerated during the
> software build process. It's a lot of little images, 19169 of them (number
> of symbols * overlays * rotations).
>
>
> And how do you deal with icons which realy should never rotate (house),
>> but the direction data may not be exactly zero (and this may happen). Do
>> you have additional data attached to an icon saying, 'never rotate'?
>>
>
> I have a map/dictionary/hash of symbols which can be rotated, and the
> original direction they're pointing at in the source image. I can publish
> that together with the symbols if it's useful.
>
> NSDictionary *initDirectionalSymbols = @{
> @"/'": @0,
> @"/(": @90,
> @"/*": @90,
> @"/<": @90,
> @"/=": @90,
> @"/>": @90,
> @"/C": @90,
> @"/F": @90,
> @"/P": @90,
> @"/S": @0,
> ....
>
> Actually, here's the machine-readable CSV/JSON/XML/YAML -formatted symbol
> descriptions index which I published a couple months ago. I should put the
> degree values there, maybe. Bob's original list is a bit difficult to use
> in an application - whenever there are changes, they need to be manually
> merged in each application config. A machine-readable index might be
> helpful and easier to synchronize to apps.
>
> https://github.com/hessu/aprs-symbol-index
> https://github.com/hessu/aprs-symbol-index/tree/master/generated
>
>
> - Hessu
>
> _______________________________________________
> aprssig mailing list
> aprssig-***@public.gmane.org
> http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
>



--
NV6G
OpenAPRS.Net
OpenAPRS iPhone Edition
Find RC sites and weather in your area on iPhone/iPad with WhereBRC
Andrew P.
2014-08-26 00:44:24 UTC
Permalink
Per my comment about possible new symbols to introduce, I went through the symbol codes defined by OpenTRAC, and found all the symbol meanings that didn't correspond to existing APRS symbol codes. These are what's left of the OpenTRAC codes after eliminating ones that correspond to existing APRS symbols (there were 120 of them). The SAR block seems the highest priority, but there still are lots of other codes that seem like it would be useful to be able to define them, at least as Objects/Items (many of them don't generally correspond to stations).

1.2.3 Unmanned Space Debris
2.2.1.1 Experimental Fixed Wing Air
2.2.1.4 Turboprop Airplane
3.1.2 Government Facility
3.1.3 Medical Facility
3.1.3.2 Clinic
3.1.3.3 Triage Facility
3.1.3.6 Morgue
3.1.4 Emergency Services
3.1.4.2 Decontamination
3.1.5.1 Power
3.1.7.2 Apartment
3.1.7.3 Condo
3.1.13.1 Park
3.1.14.1.1 Airport
3.1.14.1.2 Ultralight Flight Area
3.1.14.1.4 Helipad
3.1.14.2 Ground Transport
3.1.14.2.1 Train Station
3.1.14.2.2 Bus Station
3.1.14.2.3 Light Rail
3.1.14.3 Sea Transport
3.1.14.3.1 Port
3.1.14.3.2 Ferry Landing
3.2.1 Vehicle
3.2.1.1 Passenger Vehicle
3.2.1.2 Commercial Vehicle
3.2.1.3 Rail Vehicle
3.2.1.4 Snow Vehicle
3.2.1.4.2 Snow Plow
3.2.1.5 Construction Vehicle
3.2.1.5.1 Bulldozer
3.2.1.5.2 Backhoe
3.2.1.5.3 Loader
3.2.1.6 Public Safety Vehicle
3.2.2 Emergency Equipment
3.2.2.1 Generator
3.2.2.1.1 Portable Generator
3.2.2.1.2 Towed Generator
3.2.2.1.3 Fixed Generator
4.1.3 Support Vessel
4.1.3.1 Tugboat
4.1.3.1.1 Harbor Tug
4.1.3.1.2 Ocean Tug
4.1.3.2 Pilot Boat
4.1.5.5 PWC
4.1.5.6 Skiff
4.1.5.8 DaySail
4.1.5.10 Tall Ship
4.2.1 Floating Structure
4.2.1.1 Oil Rig
4.2.1.2 Dry Dock
4.2.1.3 Bridge
4.2.2 Fixed Structure
4.2.2.1 Oil Rig
4.2.2.2 Dry Dock
4.2.2.3 Anchor Area
4.2.2.4 Mooring
4.2.2.5 Mooring Area
4.2.2.6 Bridge
4.2.2.6.1 Fixed Bridge
4.2.2.6.2 Lift/Swing Bridge
5.1.1 Subsurface Vehicle
5.1.1.1 ROV
5.1.1.2 Submersible
5.2.1 Dive Site
5.2.2 Channel
6.1.1 Ham Radio Contest
6.1.1.1 Field Day
6.1.2 Swap Meet
6.1.3 Convention
6.2.1 Geocache
6.3.1 Parade
6.3.1.1 Parade Staging Area
6.3.1.2 Parade Review Stand
6.5.1 SAR Victim
6.5.2 SAR Tracks
6.5.3 SAR Sign
6.5.4 SAR Evidence
6.5.6 Shipwreck
6.5.7 SAR Man Overboard
6.5.8 ELT/EPIRB Hit
6.6.4 Landslide/Mudslide
6.6.5 Avalanche
6.6.6 Volcanic Eruption
7.1.1.1 Low Pressure Center
7.1.1.2 High Pressure Center
7.1.1.3.1 Cold Front
7.1.1.3.1.1 Upper Cold Front
7.1.1.3.2 Warm Front
7.1.1.3.2.1 Upper Warm Front
7.1.1.3.3 Occluded Front
7.1.1.3.4 Stationary Front
7.1.1.4.1 Trough Line
7.1.1.4.2 Ridge Line
7.1.1.4.3 Squall Line
7.1.2.1 Light Turbulence
7.1.2.2 Medium Turbulence
7.1.2.3 Severe Turbulence
7.1.2.4 Extreme Turbulence
7.1.3.1 Clear Icing
7.1.3.1.1 Light Clear Icing
7.1.3.1.2 Moderate Clear Icing
7.1.3.1.3 Severe Clear Icing
7.1.3.2 Rime Icing
7.1.3.2.1 Light Rime Icing
7.1.3.2.2 Moderate Rime Icing
7.1.3.2.3 Severe Rime Icing
7.1.3.3 Mixed Icing
7.1.3.3.1 Light Mixed Icing
7.1.3.3.2 Moderate Mixed Icing
7.1.3.3.3 Severe Mixed Icing
7.1.4 Wind Barb
7.1.4.1 Jet Stream
7.1.5.1 Instrument Ceiling
7.1.5.2 Visual Ceiling
7.1.7.4 Ice Pellets
7.1.7.5 Ice Crystals
7.1.9.3 Dust/Sand Storm
7.1.9.4 Dust Devil

It was a very subjective process (for example, there are over a dozen airplane codes in OpenTrac which I mapped into either the APRS small airplane icon or the large airplane icon).

So, are any of these worth adding in some of the "holes" in the APRS symbol tables?

Andrew Pavlin, KA2DDO

> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:23:07 +0300
> From: hessu-***@public.gmane.org
> To: aprssig-***@public.gmane.org
> Subject: Re: [aprssig] New icon images
>
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2014, andrewemt wrote:
>
> > Greetings, all.
> >
> > I was just reading some archives of the mailing list, and came upon the discussion last year of defining new APRS
> > symbol code meanings and creating new symbol icon images.
> >
> > Has any progress been made on that?
>
> I've mostly finished the work on a new symbol set. I'll release it first
> on aprs.fi (pretty soon), and then open-source the data. The new ones look
> pretty good on modern displays, even when rotated as bitmaps:
>
> https://twitter.com/aprsfi/status/502348470465097728
>
>
> That effort, however, only targeted the old symbol set, and none of the
> new ones, mostly because drawing a lot of additional symbols takes a lot
> of additional time, and it took a lot of time to just do the old ones
> (some 30-50 minutes per symbol! and could easily use more to make them
> better). I'm not quite sure it makes sense to put a lot of effort in a
> huge granularity of different symbol graphics like this:
>
> HOUSE: #-
> /- = House
> \- = (was HF)
> 5- = 50 Hz mains power
> 6- = 60 Hz mains power
>
> ... are there any areas where one house has 50 Hz and the next house
> suddenly has 60 Hz? What is the relevancy of this?
>
> B- = Backup Battery Power
> C- = Club, as in Ham club
> E- = Emergency power
> G- = Geothermal
> H- = Hydro powered
> O- = Operator Present
> S- = Solar Powered
> W- = Wind powered
>
> ... huh? 9 more houses to draw, while somehow signaling which sort of
> power source each house has? Will there also be a separate for a
> Hydro-powered house which has an operator present, VHF yagi antenna and a
> dog?
>
> I'd suggest this sort of granularity and detail could go to the free-form
> comment text. We'll need to hire a full-time symbol graphic artist if we
> go to details like this. :)
>
> The "generalize old symbols" direction would be more useful. Like when the
> current symbolsX.txt redefines \h, which used to be 'ham store', as just
> 'store', which is more widely useful.
>
> - Hessu
>
> _______________________________________________
> aprssig mailing list
> aprssig-***@public.gmane.org
> http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
SARTrack Admin
2014-08-26 05:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Yes, I really, really need these.

Bart

On 26/08/2014 02:44, Andrew P. wrote:
> 6.5.1 SAR Victim
> 6.5.2 SAR Tracks
> 6.5.3 SAR Sign
> 6.5.4 SAR Evidence

--

SARTrack Developer and CEO
andrewemt
2014-08-22 14:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Were any new symbol meanings defined? I know somebody wanted some new symbol types for SAR and there were certainly enough symbol types created in OpenTRAC that had no corresponding symbol in APRS.

Also, did Bob get his clean-up of his proposed symbol extensions done?

All more stuff to think about while we're here.

Andrew, KA2DDO

-------- Original message --------
From: Heikki Hannikainen <hessu-***@public.gmane.org>
Date:08/22/2014 00:26 (GMT-05:00)
To: TAPR APRS Mailing List <aprssig-***@public.gmane.org>
Cc:
Subject: Re: [aprssig] New icon images

On Thu, 21 Aug 2014, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:

> On 8/21/2014 4:23 PM, Heikki Hannikainen wrote:
>>
>> I've mostly finished the work on a new symbol set. I'll release it first on
>> aprs.fi (pretty soon), and then open-source the data. The new ones look
>> pretty good on modern displays, even when rotated as bitmaps:
>>
>> https://twitter.com/aprsfi/status/502348470465097728
>
> So are they only going to be bitmaps or will they be available in a vector
> form as well?

They'll come with source code (vector form, .ai), so that they can be
edited and developed further, and exported again in other resolutions.

- Hessu
Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
2014-08-22 15:02:37 UTC
Permalink
On 8/21/2014 4:23 PM, Heikki Hannikainen wrote:
> That effort, however, only targeted the old symbol set, and none of
> the new ones, ...

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 8/22/2014 10:48 AM, andrewemt wrote:
> Were any new symbol meanings defined? I know somebody wanted some new
> symbol types for SAR and there were certainly enough symbol types
> created in OpenTRAC that had no corresponding symbol in APRS.
>
> Also, did Bob get his clean-up of his proposed symbol extensions done?
>
> All more stuff to think about while we're here.
>
> Andrew, KA2DDO
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Heikki Hannikainen <hessu-***@public.gmane.org>
> Date:08/22/2014 00:26 (GMT-05:00)
> To: TAPR APRS Mailing List <aprssig-***@public.gmane.org>
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [aprssig] New icon images
>
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2014, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
>
> > On 8/21/2014 4:23 PM, Heikki Hannikainen wrote:
> >>
> >> I've mostly finished the work on a new symbol set. I'll release it
> first on
> >> aprs.fi (pretty soon), and then open-source the data. The new ones
> look
> >> pretty good on modern displays, even when rotated as bitmaps:
> >>
> >> https://twitter.com/aprsfi/status/502348470465097728
> >
> > So are they only going to be bitmaps or will they be available in a
> vector
> > form as well?
>
> They'll come with source code (vector form, .ai), so that they can be
> edited and developed further, and exported again in other resolutions.
>
> - Hessu
>
> _______________________________________________
> aprssig mailing list
> aprssig-***@public.gmane.org
> http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> aprssig mailing list
> aprssig-***@public.gmane.org
> http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
andrewemt
2014-08-27 20:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Ok, so how do we go about adding these to the symbol set? We know about the issue with ancient software that can't update icons, but since most software in use can update them, which symbol codes (possibly going to Bob's proposal for APRS 1.2 extended symbols if needed) should we use, and which new meanings do we need to bring in while we're doing it?

We can use the default cross-shaped bogus icon in the UI-View set until someone draws better icons.

Andrew, KA2DDO

-------- Original message --------
From: SARTrack Admin <info-an+***@public.gmane.org>
Date:08/26/2014 01:14 (GMT-05:00)
To: TAPR APRS Mailing List <aprssig-***@public.gmane.org>
Cc:
Subject: Re: [aprssig] New icon images

Yes, I really, really need these.

Bart

On 26/08/2014 02:44, Andrew P. wrote:
> 6.5.1 SAR Victim
> 6.5.2 SAR Tracks
> 6.5.3 SAR Sign
> 6.5.4 SAR Evidence

--

SARTrack Developer and CEO
Jason KG4WSV
2014-08-27 21:14:53 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, andrewemt <andrewemt-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Ok, so how do we go about adding these to the symbol set? We know about the
> issue with ancient software that can't update icons, but since most software
> in use can update them, which symbol codes (possibly going to Bob's proposal
> for APRS 1.2 extended symbols if needed) should we use, and which new
> meanings do we need to bring in while we're doing it?

stand by for lamentations of "oh no, what about the old Kenwoods" in
5...4...3...2...1...

-Jason
kg4wsv
Andrew P.
2014-08-28 10:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Uh, isn't that why Kenwood makes firmware upgrades available on their website?

In any case, what is the mechanism for proposing symbol code assignments for these meanings, and which meanings are important enough to get added?

Andrew, KA2DDO

> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 16:14:53 -0500
> From: kg4wsv-***@public.gmane.org
> To: aprssig-***@public.gmane.org
> Subject: Re: [aprssig] New icon images
>
> On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 3:54 PM, andrewemt <andrewemt-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > Ok, so how do we go about adding these to the symbol set? We know about the
> > issue with ancient software that can't update icons, but since most software
> > in use can update them, which symbol codes (possibly going to Bob's proposal
> > for APRS 1.2 extended symbols if needed) should we use, and which new
> > meanings do we need to bring in while we're doing it?
>
> stand by for lamentations of "oh no, what about the old Kenwoods" in
> 5...4...3...2...1...
>
> -Jason
> kg4wsv
> _______________________________________________
> aprssig mailing list
> aprssig-***@public.gmane.org
> http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
Steve Dimse
2014-08-28 13:07:38 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:57 AM, Andrew P. <andrewemt-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Uh, isn't that why Kenwood makes firmware upgrades available on their website?
>
The original Kenwoods have to be opened and programming cable soldered onto the circuit board to update the firmware. The circuit board was a design that Kenwood had developed but never released for the Japanese market. It was obsolete even before it was released in the late 90s! After its release there were so many bugs Kenwood had to issue one, but it was a headache, you either had to send it to them or go to one of the few hamfests to which they sent techs, in which case they could flash it while you waited. I'm sure they are not going to do that again!

> In any case, what is the mechanism for proposing symbol code assignments for these meanings, and which meanings are important enough to get added?
>
The APRS Working Group, which these days is down to Bob. I suspect he does not want to open the floodgates as there have been many, many proposals over the years of individuals that wanted a symbol, and of course there are only a few unassigned. Unless it is something with widespread ham appeal I suspect he isn't going to act.

I think a backward compatible extended symbol space is your best bet, then everyone can add all the symbols they want.

Steve K4HG
SARTrack Admin
2014-08-28 14:15:22 UTC
Permalink
Can somebody please advise me *which* Primary and secundary symbols are
'officially' still not assigned.

Thanks, Bart


--

SARTrack Developer and CEO
Robert Bruninga
2014-08-28 15:04:24 UTC
Permalink
Actually, the symbol space has been opened up form the original 100 or so
to thousands (by judicious use of "overlay" characters on a basic set of
symbols. This is backwards compatible. Those with older systems see the
base symbol with the overlay character, those with newser systems "can"
see any new specially drawn symbols that matches that unique combination
of base symbol and overlay. See some of the examples on
http://aprs.org/symbols.html

Follow the link to symbols-new.txt and you will see several of these
expansions. As many as a dozen different symbol definitions for some of
the basic symbols.

The PROBLEM is that now it takes a massive effort by software developers
to render actual images to match these new definitions. And to keep
current, which is a daunting task. But at least the "symbol space" is
available to contain these thousands of new possibilities. In other
words, I accommodated it in the spec and simply passed the buck to the
code writers...

Bob, WB4APR


-----Original Message-----
From: aprssig-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:aprssig-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf
Of Steve Dimse
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 9:08 AM
To: TAPR APRS Mailing List
Subject: Re: [aprssig] New icon images


On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:57 AM, Andrew P. <andrewemt-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Uh, isn't that why Kenwood makes firmware upgrades available on their
website?
>
The original Kenwoods have to be opened and programming cable soldered
onto the circuit board to update the firmware. The circuit board was a
design that Kenwood had developed but never released for the Japanese
market. It was obsolete even before it was released in the late 90s! After
its release there were so many bugs Kenwood had to issue one, but it was a
headache, you either had to send it to them or go to one of the few
hamfests to which they sent techs, in which case they could flash it while
you waited. I'm sure they are not going to do that again!

> In any case, what is the mechanism for proposing symbol code assignments
for these meanings, and which meanings are important enough to get added?
>
The APRS Working Group, which these days is down to Bob. I suspect he does
not want to open the floodgates as there have been many, many proposals
over the years of individuals that wanted a symbol, and of course there
are only a few unassigned. Unless it is something with widespread ham
appeal I suspect he isn't going to act.

I think a backward compatible extended symbol space is your best bet, then
everyone can add all the symbols they want.

Steve K4HG
Robert Bruninga
2014-08-28 15:48:52 UTC
Permalink
>> Ok, so how do we go about adding these to the symbol set? We know

> stand by for lamentations of "oh no, what about the old Kenwoods" in
5...4...3...2...1...

Not a problem. A new Drone for example will still show as an airplane.
With an overlay D.

Bob
andrewemt
2014-08-28 15:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Bob,

So if I submit a proposal for symbol assignments to you and update the UI-View icon files to match and send them to Steve for posting, would that at least get things rolling?

Andrew, KA2DDO

-------- Original message --------
From: Robert Bruninga <bruninga-***@public.gmane.org>
Date:08/28/2014 11:04 (GMT-05:00)
To: TAPR APRS Mailing List <aprssig-***@public.gmane.org>
Cc:
Subject: Re: [aprssig] New icon images

Actually, the symbol space has been opened up form the original 100 or so
to thousands (by judicious use of "overlay" characters on a basic set of
symbols. This is backwards compatible. Those with older systems see the
base symbol with the overlay character, those with newser systems "can"
see any new specially drawn symbols that matches that unique combination
of base symbol and overlay. See some of the examples on
http://aprs.org/symbols.html

Follow the link to symbols-new.txt and you will see several of these
expansions. As many as a dozen different symbol definitions for some of
the basic symbols.

The PROBLEM is that now it takes a massive effort by software developers
to render actual images to match these new definitions. And to keep
current, which is a daunting task. But at least the "symbol space" is
available to contain these thousands of new possibilities. In other
words, I accommodated it in the spec and simply passed the buck to the
code writers...

Bob, WB4APR


-----Original Message-----
From: aprssig-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:aprssig-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf
Of Steve Dimse
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 9:08 AM
To: TAPR APRS Mailing List
Subject: Re: [aprssig] New icon images


On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:57 AM, Andrew P. <andrewemt-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Uh, isn't that why Kenwood makes firmware upgrades available on their
website?
>
The original Kenwoods have to be opened and programming cable soldered
onto the circuit board to update the firmware. The circuit board was a
design that Kenwood had developed but never released for the Japanese
market. It was obsolete even before it was released in the late 90s! After
its release there were so many bugs Kenwood had to issue one, but it was a
headache, you either had to send it to them or go to one of the few
hamfests to which they sent techs, in which case they could flash it while
you waited. I'm sure they are not going to do that again!

> In any case, what is the mechanism for proposing symbol code assignments
for these meanings, and which meanings are important enough to get added?
>
The APRS Working Group, which these days is down to Bob. I suspect he does
not want to open the floodgates as there have been many, many proposals
over the years of individuals that wanted a symbol, and of course there
are only a few unassigned. Unless it is something with widespread ham
appeal I suspect he isn't going to act.

I think a backward compatible extended symbol space is your best bet, then
everyone can add all the symbols they want.

Steve K4HG
Loading...