[APRS] DIGIPEATER Callsigns (by location)

[SARTrack Admin]

I so totally disagree with this.

The 'From' callsign in AX25 packets is the UNIQUE callsign of the station.
All existing APRS gear is based on this.
When people are going to make up their own 'From' callsigns, and some of
them use the same name, chaos is the result.
It is the ONE field which should be always unique, and therefore the
amateur radio callsign.

I already have enough trouble on my own private APRS network for Search
and Rescue users, where many stations are not HAM stations, and they
either make up their own callsign or I have to allocate them one.

SARTrack uses a 'Tactical' callsign which is added in the Information
field, and this shows up on the Maps etc. It also supports the Xastir
system of Tactical calls which are transmitted as Messages.

And no, they are not showing up on Kenwood radios.. If that was
required, it should have been included in the original spec as a special
addition to the Information field (and that would have been a good idea).

Bart
SARTrack Developer
www.sartrack.co.nz

While driving in the wilderness in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho, I was
reminded how nice it is when DIGIPEATERS ID with their location name
instead of callsign.
When I get back, I am going to revise ALL my recommendation pages over
the years to reflect this.

[Robert Bruninga]

While driving in the wilderness in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho, I was
reminded how nice it is when DIGIPEATERS ID with their location name
instead of callsign.

When I get back, I am going to revise ALL my recommendation pages over the
years to reflect this.

Nothing like seeing TETON show up as a digi, when I am driving through the
Tetons for example.

My one worry is people who think everyone knows the name of their little
mountain when no one beyond their own club does... IE, PLEASE chose a
geographic name that would be recognized or at least figured out by an out
of state mobile travler. Not maybe the actual (obscure) name of the local
mountain.

And then include the actuall callsign at the end of the packet...

Bob

[David Andrzejewski]

This isn't really different than what we do with objects (like frequency objects) today.

KD8TWG
--
David Andrzejewski

Post by SARTrack Admin
I so totally disagree with this.
The 'From' callsign in AX25 packets is the UNIQUE callsign of the station.
All existing APRS gear is based on this.
When people are going to make up their own 'From' callsigns, and some of them use the same name, chaos is the result.
It is the ONE field which should be always unique, and therefore the amateur radio callsign.
I already have enough trouble on my own private APRS network for Search and Rescue users, where many stations are not HAM stations, and they either make up their own callsign or I have to allocate them one.
SARTrack uses a 'Tactical' callsign which is added in the Information field, and this shows up on the Maps etc. It also supports the Xastir system of Tactical calls which are transmitted as Messages.
And no, they are not showing up on Kenwood radios.. If that was required, it should have been included in the original spec as a special addition to the Information field (and that would have been a good idea).
Bart
SARTrack Developer
www.sartrack.co.nz

While driving in the wilderness in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho, I was
reminded how nice it is when DIGIPEATERS ID with their location name
instead of callsign.
When I get back, I am going to revise ALL my recommendation pages over
the years to reflect this.

--
SARTrack Developer and CEO
_______________________________________________
aprssig mailing list
http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig

[SARTrack Admin]

Post by David Andrzejewski
This isn't really different than what we do with objects (like frequency objects) today.

Yes it is, because both the 'From' callsign and the Object name are in
known locations, and it is possible (but a pain in the neck) to
sepparate all the identical Objectnames by pairing them with the 'From'
callsign, that is, the owner of the Object.

This is NOT possible if the 'From' callsign is a non-unique name, and
the actual 'From' callsign is added somewhere in a non-standard location
in the Information field.

And note that, if a Station would also use this system, and it transmits
an Object, than it becomes even more nasty to try to find out to whom an
Object belongs to. However, I think Bob just wanted to do it with
Digipeaters... but then, where is the limit?

Bart

[andre]

Post by SARTrack Admin

Post by David Andrzejewski
This isn't really different than what we do with objects (like frequency objects) today.

Yes it is, because both the 'From' callsign and the Object name are
in known locations, and it is possible (but a pain in the neck) to
sepparate all the identical Objectnames by pairing them with the
'From' callsign, that is, the owner of the Object.
This is NOT possible if the 'From' callsign is a non-unique name,
and the actual 'From' callsign is added somewhere in a non-standard
location in the Information field.
And note that, if a Station would also use this system, and it
transmits an Object, than it becomes even more nasty to try to find
out to whom an Object belongs to. However, I think Bob just wanted
to do it with Digipeaters... but then, where is the limit?
Bart

Actualy most objects should be from digipeaters with no path to limit
the air time used by transmitting them.

Also not everywhere transmitting with anything other then a hamcall is
allowed so it can not legaly be a global recomendation.

I also fail to see the use for it, you already know what area you are
going trough and kenwood radios already display the distance and
direction so all the info is already known.
Using geographical callsigns is wastings information space.

73 de Andre PE1RDW

[Robert Bruninga]

Selecting a unique name is easy. Just browse aprs.fi/NAME where NAME is
the location one wants to use for the given digipeater. If nothing else in
the world matches, then the name is unique. If there is a match, then
change the name to make it unique.

Being able to instantly see what are humans (ham communicators) among a 100
deep list of callsigns (half of which are digipeaters or other inannimate
objects is a useful capability when trying to actually communicate using
APRS. It also makes it instantly obvious where one's signals are being
digipeated (by location) instead of some random collection of letters
(callsigns). Bob, WB4APR

Post by SARTrack Admin
I so totally disagree with this.
The 'From' callsign in AX25 packets is the UNIQUE callsign of the station.
All existing APRS gear is based on this.
When people are going to make up their own 'From' callsigns, and some of
them use the same name, chaos is the result.
It is the ONE field which should be always unique, and therefore the
amateur radio callsign.
I already have enough trouble on my own private APRS network for Search
and Rescue users, where many stations are not HAM stations, and they either
make up their own callsign or I have to allocate them one.
SARTrack uses a 'Tactical' callsign which is added in the Information
field, and this shows up on the Maps etc. It also supports the Xastir
system of Tactical calls which are transmitted as Messages.
And no, they are not showing up on Kenwood radios.. If that was required,
it should have been included in the original spec as a special addition to
the Information field (and that would have been a good idea).
Bart
SARTrack Developer
www.sartrack.co.nz

While driving in the wilderness in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho, I was
reminded how nice it is when DIGIPEATERS ID with their location name
instead of callsign.
When I get back, I am going to revise ALL my recommendation pages over
the years to reflect this.
--

SARTrack Developer and CEO
_______________________________________________
aprssig mailing list
http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig

[andre]

Post by Robert Bruninga
Selecting a unique name is easy. Just browse aprs.fi/NAME
<http://aprs.fi/NAME> where NAME is the location one wants to use for
the given digipeater. If nothing else in the world matches, then the
name is unique. If there is a match, then change the name to make it
unique.

Just more trouble setting up when callsigns are already unique

Post by Robert Bruninga
Being able to instantly see what are humans (ham communicators) among a
100 deep list of callsigns (half of which are digipeaters or other
inannimate objects is a useful capability when trying to actually
communicate using APRS. It also makes it instantly obvious where one's
signals are being digipeated (by location) instead of some random
collection of letters (callsigns). Bob, WB4APR

Isn't that what you invented icons for?
Used correctly it already shows type of station and type of opperation.


73 de Andre PE1RDW

[Robert Bruninga]

ICONS do not show up in the station list. ANd glancing at the station list
is the quickest means of getting situational awareness while driving. The
#1 objective of APRS...

Conversly, poking around and selecting EACH station out of a 100 deep list
while driving just to see what it is, is something I hope that mobile
operators do not do.

Bob, Wb4APR

Post by andre

Post by Robert Bruninga
Selecting a unique name is easy. Just browse aprs.fi/NAME
<http://aprs.fi/NAME> where NAME is the location one wants to use for
the given digipeater. If nothing else in the world matches, then the
name is unique. If there is a match, then change the name to make it
unique.

Just more trouble setting up when callsigns are already unique

Post by Robert Bruninga
Being able to instantly see what are humans (ham communicators) among a
100 deep list of callsigns (half of which are digipeaters or other
inannimate objects is a useful capability when trying to actually
communicate using APRS. It also makes it instantly obvious where one's
signals are being digipeated (by location) instead of some random
collection of letters (callsigns). Bob, WB4APR

Isn't that what you invented icons for?
Used correctly it already shows type of station and type of opperation.
73 de Andre PE1RDW
_______________________________________________
aprssig mailing list
http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig

[andre]

Post by Robert Bruninga
ICONS do not show up in the station list. ANd glancing at the station
list is the quickest means of getting situational awareness while
driving. The #1 objective of APRS...
Conversly, poking around and selecting EACH station out of a 100 deep
list while driving just to see what it is, is something I hope that
mobile operators do not do.
Bob, Wb4APR

Scroling trough the station list as a driver is already something that
WILL get you in trouble with the law in my and I asume more countries.

It is clasified as opperating a verhicle in a manner that CAN endanger
yourself or others.

The only info I am ever going to see as a driver is the flashing page as
a station is recieved and info displayed on an attached GPS that
supports showing that info.

sending APRS messages and building a mental image of the stations around
them is done by the passenger and they have plenty of time to poke
around especialy with the sorting options.

73 de Andre PE1RDW

[Fredric Moses]

I switched all of the Digi/Igates we run here in michigan to "tactical"
based callsigns from the sheer fact of I was running out of -ssid's on my
callsign and my club callsign... Not to mention when watching the scroll
it makes troubleshooting much simpler to see the packet paths based on
name... And as I am not the only one in our group taking care of the
fleet everybody knows what HOLLY,HOLAND just by watching it... But
W8FSM-5,W8FSM-2 isn't always clear to others.... And this is as we are
watching raw packets not looking at maps or clients.. I did just get a
D710 and it's nice that it shows the name of the site right on the screen
that was digied off from..

We made these changes back in 08 and haven't looked backed since..

--
Fredric Moses - W8FSM - WQOG498

Post by Robert Bruninga
ICONS do not show up in the station list. ANd glancing at the station
list is the quickest means of getting situational awareness while driving.
The #1 objective of APRS...
Conversly, poking around and selecting EACH station out of a 100 deep list
while driving just to see what it is, is something I hope that mobile
operators do not do.
Bob, Wb4APR

[Randy Love]

I've only been recommending and doing this since the late '90's.
Welcome aboard, Mr. Bruninga!

73,
Randy
WF5X

Post by Fredric Moses
I switched all of the Digi/Igates we run here in michigan to "tactical"
based callsigns from the sheer fact of I was running out of -ssid's on my
callsign and my club callsign... Not to mention when watching the scroll
it makes troubleshooting much simpler to see the packet paths based on
name... And as I am not the only one in our group taking care of the
fleet everybody knows what HOLLY,HOLAND just by watching it... But
W8FSM-5,W8FSM-2 isn't always clear to others.... And this is as we are
watching raw packets not looking at maps or clients.. I did just get a
D710 and it's nice that it shows the name of the site right on the screen
that was digied off from..
We made these changes back in 08 and haven't looked backed since..
--
Fredric Moses - W8FSM - WQOG498

Post by Robert Bruninga
ICONS do not show up in the station list. ANd glancing at the station
list is the quickest means of getting situational awareness while driving.
The #1 objective of APRS...
Conversly, poking around and selecting EACH station out of a 100 deep
list while driving just to see what it is, is something I hope that mobile
operators do not do.
Bob, Wb4APR

_______________________________________________
aprssig mailing list
http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig

[Randy Love]

Of course, you should CHECK YOUR PROPOSED ID on aprs.fi or elsewhere before
implementing it to make sure it's unique.

(That's a no brainer to me, but not everyone thinks like I do!)

WF5X

Post by Randy Love
I've only been recommending and doing this since the late '90's.
Welcome aboard, Mr. Bruninga!
73,
Randy
WF5X

Post by Fredric Moses
I switched all of the Digi/Igates we run here in michigan to "tactical"
based callsigns from the sheer fact of I was running out of -ssid's on my
callsign and my club callsign... Not to mention when watching the scroll
it makes troubleshooting much simpler to see the packet paths based on
name... And as I am not the only one in our group taking care of the
fleet everybody knows what HOLLY,HOLAND just by watching it... But
W8FSM-5,W8FSM-2 isn't always clear to others.... And this is as we are
watching raw packets not looking at maps or clients.. I did just get a
D710 and it's nice that it shows the name of the site right on the screen
that was digied off from..
We made these changes back in 08 and haven't looked backed since..
--
Fredric Moses - W8FSM - WQOG498

Post by Robert Bruninga
ICONS do not show up in the station list. ANd glancing at the station
list is the quickest means of getting situational awareness while driving.
The #1 objective of APRS...
Conversly, poking around and selecting EACH station out of a 100 deep
list while driving just to see what it is, is something I hope that mobile
operators do not do.
Bob, Wb4APR

_______________________________________________
aprssig mailing list
http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig

[SARTrack Admin]

Post by Fredric Moses
I switched all of the Digi/Igates we run here in michigan to "tactical"
of the fleet everybody knows what HOLLY,HOLAND just by watching it...

So if I add my Filter to get all stations from Panama ( p/HO ) then I
will get your digis too...

Bart

[Tom Hayward]

Post by Fredric Moses
I switched all of the Digi/Igates we run here in michigan to "tactical"
of the fleet everybody knows what HOLLY,HOLAND just by watching it...

So if I add my Filter to get all stations from Panama ( p/HO ) then I will
get your digis too...

So what? That's not going to overwhelm your APRS-IS connection.

Filtering by callsign prefix is also not a very intelligent way of
doing a geo-selection ("all stations from Panama"). There are area
filters available for that.

Tom KD7LXL

[Bob Burns W9BU]

Post by Tom Hayward
Filtering by callsign prefix is also not a very intelligent way of
doing a geo-selection ("all stations from Panama"). There are area
filters available for that.

I agree. APRS is supposed to be about local, tactical information. Frankly,
I don't care about what's going on 100 or 1000 miles away from my current
APRS location. But, it would be useful to know where the digi is that I'm
hitting.

Bob...

[l***@public.gmane.org]

Post by SARTrack Admin

Post by Fredric Moses
I switched all of the Digi/Igates we run here in michigan to "tactical"
of the fleet everybody knows what HOLLY,HOLAND just by watching it...

So if I add my Filter to get all stations from Panama ( p/HO ) then I
will get your digis too...
Bart

hehe these tactical stations need special filtering in Norway as there
are a few stations beginning with i.e LA, LE etc originating outside
Norway.

For a digipeater i really don't see the need for a tactical callsign.
The callsign assigned to the digi should be enough. What do you gain
using this?

For a regular station this also is messing with igates and yes i know
i can use a range filter but then it's more tweaking.

And in some regions it's not allowed even if you put the actual
callsign in the same packet.

anyhow in No(r)way a regular digipeater has to be assigned via the
local HAM group and they get assigned a callsign dedicated for digital
stations. The clubstation get LAxY.

So all packet, D-Star etc get a callsign with the prefix LD
The number states wich region of the country based on the postal number.
Hordaland county is 5xxx so a digipeater gets LD5xx where xx is
dictated by either a region, mountain name, city.
i.e LD5BG where BG is for BerGen, LD5BE is BErgen but on a different
mountain top. LD5GU = Gulen. If you have a map then the two letter is
intuitive even for visitors with an open eye ;-)

So clubstations can use LAxY for regular HAM stuph, permanent
digipeaters, packet nodes, winlinknodes etc gets LD or in some cases
the callsign for the clubstation. So SSIDs can be used and we are not
running out of them.

In countries bigger than the smal rock i come from a system like this
is not going to work as the permutations is not big enough unless you
use 9characters. But with this system all callsigns are unike and
assigned to the country of origin.

So we have LA/LB as a regular prefix, LD for digital installations, LE
for "ARES". Clubstations are LAxY, repeaters LAxYR (R for repeater).

Not sure if other countries use similar systems...

Kai Günter
LA3QMA

[Mark Cheavens]

You are assuming that the user is using a MAP.
- Having a unique NAME that is geographically representative is FAR
superior (as Bob states)
- In addition to that with only 16 ssid's I ran out of my call and
club call use for Digi's YEARS ago.
- I have been moving all my digi's to georeferenced names for years.
Still will take years more to get to all the ones that I have custom
roms programmed for.
- I MUCH prefer a relevant name as it scrolls past on the screen!

Mark Cheavens
KC5EVE

Post by andre

Post by Robert Bruninga
Selecting a unique name is easy. Just browse aprs.fi/NAME
<http://aprs.fi/NAME> where NAME is the location one wants to use for
the given digipeater. If nothing else in the world matches, then the
name is unique. If there is a match, then change the name to make it
unique.

Just more trouble setting up when callsigns are already unique

Post by Robert Bruninga
Being able to instantly see what are humans (ham communicators) among a
100 deep list of callsigns (half of which are digipeaters or other
inannimate objects is a useful capability when trying to actually
communicate using APRS. It also makes it instantly obvious where one's
signals are being digipeated (by location) instead of some random
collection of letters (callsigns). Bob, WB4APR

Isn't that what you invented icons for?
Used correctly it already shows type of station and type of opperation.
73 de Andre PE1RDW
_______________________________________________
aprssig mailing list
http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig

[Keith VE7GDH]

Bob WB4APR wrote...

Post by Robert Bruninga
It also makes it instantly obvious where one's signals are being
digipeated (by location) instead of some random collection of
letters> (callsigns).

I'm not suggesting that tactical callsigns should never be used, but
station callsigns as assigned by the licensing authority of each country
are not random collections of letters.

[Robert Bruninga]

Actually, they are pretty random, unless you request a vanity call. Your
chance of getting a specific Kx4xxx call is 456,976-to-1 or .0000002 which
seems pretty random to me. And they convey no information other than the
country and the region. WB4APR being in the 4 call area only vaguely
indicates I am somehere in the 250000 square mile area of the south. But
then, I am not really, I am in Maryland. ;-) Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: aprssig-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:aprssig-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf
Of Keith VE7GDH
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 10:39 AM
To: TAPR APRS Mailing List
Subject: Re: [aprssig] [APRS] DIGIPEATER Callsigns (by location)

Bob WB4APR wrote...

Post by Robert Bruninga
It also makes it instantly obvious where one's signals are being
digipeated (by location) instead of some random collection of
letters> (callsigns).

I'm not suggesting that tactical callsigns should never be used, but
station callsigns as assigned by the licensing authority of each country
are not random collections of letters.

--
73 Keith VE7GDH (not random)
UI-View32
www.ui-view.net

[Andre]

Post by Robert Bruninga
Actually, they are pretty random, unless you request a vanity call.
Your chance of getting a specific Kx4xxx call is 456,976-to-1 or
.0000002 which seems pretty random to me. And they convey no
information other than the country and the region. WB4APR being in
the 4 call area only vaguely indicates I am somehere in the 250000
square mile area of the south. But then, I am not really, I am in
Maryland. ;-) Bob

Ah because of your situation the whole world has to jump to your wishes?

Many countries have special call groups for unattended stations, for
instance pi1apd is the aprs digipeater for apeldoorn.
All digipeaters here have to have a special licence and as a result
always have a vanity call.
Even new manned stations have vanity calls by default for the past
decade or more here.

73 de Andre PE1RDW