APRS-IS vs. FireNet

[Max Harper]

Since switching to FireNet from the APRS-IS to get more NWS data I have noticed that I no longer receive any messages nor do I get any packets from once heard stations. I connect using APRX (no display) with a filter of "p/BMX/HUN". Is there a filter that is needed to get messages from Firenet that wasn't needed with the APRS-IS?

Max KG4PID

[Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)]

What server and port were you using on the APRS-IS? Some ports provide
pre-set filters for clients.

What specific stations are you not getting from FireNet? Exact
callsign-SSIDs that you're no longer seeing.

Your filter doesn't include any range or area specifications. Are you
sure that's the exact filter you were using before?

If you switch back to the APRS-IS connection, do the stations start
coming in again?

If APRX has no display, how do you do know that the packets are not
coming in? Are you viewing them with another APRS client, or what?

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 6/24/2014 10:06 PM, Max Harper wrote:
> Since switching to FireNet from the APRS-IS to get more NWS data I
> have noticed that I no longer receive any messages nor do I get any
> packets from once heard stations. I connect using APRX (no display)
> with a filter of "p/BMX/HUN". Is there a filter that is needed to get
> messages from Firenet that wasn't needed with the APRS-IS?
>
> Max KG4PID
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> aprssig mailing list
> aprssig-***@public.gmane.org
> http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig

[Max Harper]

Lynn, I'll try to answer your questions below.

What server and port were you using on the APRS-IS?  Some ports provide pre-set filters for clients.

texas.aprs2.net mostly, using port 14580

What specific stations are you not getting from FireNet?  Exact
callsign-SSIDs that you're no longer seeing.


It's the recently heard list so it varies. Like when a mobile station is heard and then gets out of range, but is heard by another igate the APRS-IS will send you that stations packets for a short period of time. (One hour I think)

Your filter doesn't include any range or area specifications.  Are
you sure that's the exact filter you were using before?

Same filter, this is a standalone igate so I don't need anything extra except NWS watches, warnings and advisories .

If you switch back to the APRS-IS connection, do the stations start
coming in again?

Yes

If APRX has no display, how do  you do know that the packets are not
coming in?  Are you viewing them with another APRS client, or what?

APRX runs under Unix/Linux and has a detailed log. It's easy to see when the APRS-IS sends something. I connect to it using SSH with Putty. I have had it running on a Raspberry Pi for over a year now.

[Mark Cheavens]

While doing a routine browse on Ebay I found the following....

I have NO details on the device, but am curious if anyone has tried
one? Not much information about it


AP510 APRS Tracker VHF with GPS/Bluetooth/Thermometer/TF Card Support APRSdroid

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AP510-APRS-Tracker-VHF-with-GPS-Bluetooth-Thermometer-TF-Card-Support-APRSdroid-/181360149390?pt=US_Ham_Radio_Transceivers&hash=item2a39e8438e

Or a short URL of the same listing

http://goo.gl/EKBxrj

I am always looking for new APRS products and thought I would pass it along.

Mark
KC5EVE

[Pete Loveall AE5PL Lists]

You are trying to use Firenet for an IGate and the Firenet servers specifically do not support IGates. This is due to the intent of the Firenet vs. APRS-IS. The APRS-IS primary purpose today is to interconnect amateur radio RF APRS networks. This means it is expected that -any- and -all- packets seen in the APRS-IS network may end up on RF somewhere in the world. Firenet, on the other hand, is an experimental subnet without that restriction and encourages experimentation with higher activity feeds than what APRS-IS is designed for. Because of this, APRS-IS servers support "recently heard" lists to support IGates running on filtered feeds; Firenet servers do not support "recently heard" lists so people do not connect IGates to their servers, only GUI clients, database collectors, or ot
her non-RF application.

APRS-IS=RF support; Firenet=Internet-only clients. Firenet does fully support messaging to/from APRS-IS for the directly connected clients but not for clients beyond the directly connected client (gated by an IGate).

Hope this helps.

73,

Pete Loveall AE5PL
pete at ae5pl dot net



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Max Harper
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 9:07 PM
>
> Since switching to FireNet from the APRS-IS to get more NWS data I have
> noticed that I no longer receive any messages nor do I get any packets from
> once heard stations. I connect using APRX (no display) with a filter of
> "p/BMX/HUN". Is there a filter that is needed to get messages from Firenet
> that wasn't needed with the APRS-IS?
>
> Max KG4PID

[Steve Huston]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 8:04 AM, Pete Loveall AE5PL Lists
<hamlists-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> You are trying to use Firenet for an IGate and the Firenet servers specifically do not support IGates. This is due to the intent of the Firenet vs. APRS-IS. The APRS-IS primary purpose today is to interconnect amateur radio RF APRS networks. This means it is expected that -any- and -all- packets seen in the APRS-IS network may end up on RF somewhere in the world. Firenet, on the other hand, is an experimental subnet without that restriction and encourages experimentation with higher activity feeds than what APRS-IS is designed for. Because of this, APRS-IS servers support "recently heard" lists to support IGates running on filtered feeds; Firenet servers do not support "recently heard" lists so people do not connect IGates to their servers, only GUI clients, database collectors, or
other non-RF application.

Is that a recent change? My station has been down for a long time
(tree got too close to the antenna and gave it too vigorous of a hug,
haven't replaced it nor cut the tree back yet) but looking through my
old Xastir config I see I was connecting to Firenet as I thought I
recalled and I don't recall having those sorts of problems. I also
see this at the top of http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=FireNet :

"It carries the full APRS-IS feed PLUS the additional types of
objects listed below. The tie-in between FireNet and APRS-IS allows
station positions and messages to transfer between the systems, but
the special FireNet objects do not get sent to APRS-IS."

That leads me to believe Max's use case is specifically allowed. But
again, I've been out of it for some time and could have missed some
messages describing these changes!

--
Steve Huston - W2SRH - Unix Sysadmin, PICSciE/CSES & Astrophysical Sci
Princeton University | ICBM Address: 40.346344 -74.652242
345 Lewis Library |"On my ship, the Rocinante, wheeling through
Princeton, NJ 08544 | the galaxies; headed for the heart of Cygnus,
[phone] | headlong into mystery." -Rush, 'Cygnus X-1'

[Pete Loveall AE5PL Lists]

No, it is not a recent change. The statement you quoted is exactly correct. You assumed that IGates are supported because there is full APRS data transfer between APRS-IS and FireNet (which is true) but that statement does not say that filtered feeds maintain a recently heard list which is necessary for IGates. That quoted sentence lets people know if they connect a client to FireNet, they -can- see any packets seen on APRS-IS plus those injected directly into FireNet and their packets will be sent to APRS-IS in addition to the FireNet servers. The key word is "can" and on a filtered port on FireNet, it does not maintain a recently heard list for each client and therefore does not support IGates but does support full messaging with directly connected clients.

FireNet has not supported IGates for many years and, if you look at the status pages, that is understood by most users. It is good to remind everyone periodically as you are not the only one who has "been out of it for some time" or who is new to APRS-IS and FireNet.

Hope this helps clarify.

73,

Pete Loveall AE5PL
pete at ae5pl dot net



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Huston
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 7:32 AM
>
> Is that a recent change? My station has been down for a long time (tree got
> too close to the antenna and gave it too vigorous of a hug, haven't replaced it
> nor cut the tree back yet) but looking through my old Xastir config I see I was
> connecting to Firenet as I thought I recalled and I don't recall having those
> sorts of problems. I also see this at the top of
> http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=FireNet :
>
> "It carries the full APRS-IS feed PLUS the additional types of objects listed
> below. The tie-in between FireNet and APRS-IS allows station positions and
> messages to transfer between the systems, but the special FireNet objects
> do not get sent to APRS-IS."
>
> That leads me to believe Max's use case is specifically allowed. But again, I've
> been out of it for some time and could have missed some messages
> describing these changes!

[Max Harper]

That answers most of my questions. But I had never read anything like that before and I have searched for info many times. I've been igateing packets through FireNet for months now and the only things that don't work is messages and the recently heard list just like you said, but igateing INTO FireNet works fine. So if I connect to ......

A. APRS-IS I get full igate support but can't get the extra NWS watches and advisories..
B. FireNet I can get the NWS watches, warnings and advisories (and other stuff if I want it) but limited igate support.

So there is no way to have an igate with full messaging capability AND transmit NWS watches, warnings and advisories, Is that correct. Why don't we have an option C anymore? Most clients can only connect to one server. Who was it that used to inject all the NWS data into the APRS-IS? It's been a few years ago. I liked that much better.

Max KG4PID

From: Pete Loveall AE5PL Lists <***@ametx.com>
To: TAPR APRS Mailing List <aprssig-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: [aprssig] APRS-IS vs. FireNet


You are trying to use Firenet for an IGate and the Firenet servers specifically do not support IGates.  This is due to the intent of the Firenet vs. APRS-IS.  The APRS-IS primary purpose today is to interconnect amateur radio RF APRS networks.  This means it is expected that -any- and -all- packets seen in the APRS-IS network may end up on RF somewhere in the world.  Firenet, on the other hand, is an experimental subnet without that restriction and encourages experimentation with higher activity feeds than what APRS-IS is designed for.  Because of this, APRS-IS servers support "recently heard" lists to support IGates running on filtered feeds; Firenet servers do not support "recently heard" lists so people do not connect IGates to their servers, only GUI clients, database collectors, or other non-RF application.

APRS-IS=RF support; Firenet=Internet-only clients.  Firenet does fully support messaging to/from APRS-IS for the directly connected clients but not for clients beyond the directly connected client (gated by an IGate).

Hope this helps.

73,

Pete Loveall AE5PL
pete at ae5pl dot net




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Max Harper
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 9:07 PM
>
> Since switching to FireNet from the APRS-IS to get more NWS data I have
> noticed that I no longer receive any messages nor do I get any packets from
> once heard stations. I connect using APRX (no display) with a filter of
> "p/BMX/HUN". Is there a filter that is needed to get messages from Firenet
> that wasn't needed with the APRS-IS?
>
> Max KG4PID

[Pete Loveall AE5PL Lists]

This has been hashed and rehashed. And, contrary to your statement, there are many places including here where it has been said that FireNet servers do not support IGates on filtered feeds.

The weather server you are thinking of has been offline for years. You are incorrect in your statement that you cannot transmit NWS warnings. They are on APRS-IS but only immediate warnings as determined by the NWS because to do otherwise would make the local RF frequency unusable during heightened weather activity in an area. Again, FireNet is great for Internet-connected clients where you have high bandwidth; APRS-IS is for RF networks. Don't try to mix the 2 as you will cause more problems than help. That is why conscientious authors limit your connection capabilities to a single server at a time. Otherwise, you introduce loops, excess data load, etc. into APRS-IS.

73,

Pete Loveall AE5PL
pete at ae5pl dot net



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Max Harper
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:39 AM
>
> That answers most of my questions. But I had never read anything like that
> before and I have searched for info many times. I've been igateing packets
> through FireNet for months now and the only things that don't work is
> messages and the recently heard list just like you said, but igateing INTO
> FireNet works fine. So if I connect to ......
>
>
> A. APRS-IS I get full igate support but can't get the extra NWS watches and
> advisories..
> B. FireNet I can get the NWS watches, warnings and advisories (and other
> stuff if I want it) but limited igate support.
>
> So there is no way to have an igate with full messaging capability AND
> transmit NWS watches, warnings and advisories, Is that correct. Why don't
> we have an option C anymore? Most clients can only connect to one server.
> Who was it that used to inject all the NWS data into the APRS-IS? It's been a
> few years ago. I liked that much better.

[Jason KG4WSV]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Pete Loveall AE5PL Lists
<hamlists-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> That is why conscientious authors limit your connection capabilities to a single server at a time.

That would be a pretty ridiculous limitation.

My standard home configuration (xastir) includes a connection to
APRS-IS and another filtered connection to firenet so I can get all
the NWS data. I frequently use server ports to connect to other data
sources (non-APRS tracking systems, both ham and non-ham RF, etc) as
well. One common thing that I may want to do is gate from some
"server" that's effectively a tracker (or even a small tracker
network) over to APRS-IS.

Limiting to a single connection sounds like a crutch for poorly
designed software than is not configurable enough for gating to work
correctly.

-Jason
kg4wsv

[Pete Loveall AE5PL Lists]

Actually, it is a very necessary limitation due to the abuse that occurred early on in APRS-IS and that would continue today. For instance, it is far too easy in a configuration such as yours for you to accidentally inject FireNet packets into APRS-IS. Many aprsD users had multiple connections to full server feeds overrunning their systems causing loops, abusing the free bandwidth donated by each upstream server sysop by implement unnecessary duplicate connections. You can disparage the software authors but it is actually implemented to respect the donations of free servers (and bandwidth) to the APRS-IS network and to prevent possible misconfigurations which can cause significant network issues.

Your "common thing" does not make sense. If you want to gate from an amateur radio network to APRS-IS, configure it that way! That does not require multiple upstream connections and is supported by at least javAPRSSrvr. If it is not an amateur radio tracker network, keep it off of APRS-IS which is primarily for interconnecting -amateur radio- RF networks. Again, please respect the free donation of resources by your fellow hams and limit feeds into APRS-IS to amateur radio related packets only. While it is easy for you to abuse the intent of APRS-IS, it is requested that you respect the thousands of other hams that make use of it every day for amateur radio purposes.

73,

Pete Loveall AE5PL
pete at ae5pl dot net



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason KG4WSV
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 10:01 AM
>
> On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Pete Loveall AE5PL Lists
> <hamlists-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > That is why conscientious authors limit your connection capabilities to a
> single server at a time.
>
> That would be a pretty ridiculous limitation.
>
> My standard home configuration (xastir) includes a connection to APRS-IS
> and another filtered connection to firenet so I can get all the NWS data. I
> frequently use server ports to connect to other data sources (non-APRS
> tracking systems, both ham and non-ham RF, etc) as well. One common
> thing that I may want to do is gate from some "server" that's effectively a
> tracker (or even a small tracker
> network) over to APRS-IS.
>
> Limiting to a single connection sounds like a crutch for poorly designed
> software than is not configurable enough for gating to work correctly.
>
> -Jason
> kg4wsv