Kenwood D710 & Yaesu FTM-350AR Compatible Frrequency Objects

[Ron Stordahl, AE5E]

Experimentally I have determined that this frequency object will be correctly acted upon by both the Kenwood D710 and the Yaesu FTM-350AR:

;146.75XYZ*111111z4904.29N/09706.79Wr146.750MHz TOFF -060

The Kenwood D710 will correctly interpret this shorter format:


;146.75XYZ*111111z4904.29N/09706.79WrTOFF -060

The Yaesu actually gets the frequency from the comment portion, i.e. the part following, in the above example, ...06.79Wr, as it cannot actually correctly interpret a frequency object.

Note that the Yaesu requires fff.fffMHz, i.e. 3 digits before and after the decimal point.

The net effect is that the beacon is increased in length by 11 bytes in order to provide Kenwood & Yaesu compatibility.


The XYZ in the leading part of the string, which would be just XY if a frequency such as 146.755 were specified, is very handy as in the D710 display list those characters help you recognize the repeater location based upon the choice of these letters.  For example Thief River Falls, MN would be shown as 146.75TRF in the displayed list.


In my travels I find that very few digipeaters are actually transmitting these useful beacons.  All of mine are, and I wish this would become standard practice, minimizing  the need for a repeater directory in the car!

The Yaesu web page indicates that the FTM-350AR is out of production!  It's replacement, it seems, is a FTM-400DR.  However, reading the documents for the FTM-400DR, it does not appear to include a QSY function based upon a frequency object beacon!  I have been transmitting the D710 version noted above for several years, covering all of NW Minnesota, and only in the last few weeks have been asked why this did not work for the FTM-350AR.  I would guess few FTM-350AR's were sold vs the D710.

Ron, AE5E

[n4lbl]

The best I can tell from the manuals, the FT1D also lacks the QSY function.

Alan,,, n4lbl


On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 10:37 AM, Ron Stordahl, AE5E <
ronn5in-aprssig-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Experimentally I have determined that this frequency object will be
> correctly acted upon by both the Kenwood D710 and the Yaesu FTM-350AR:
>
> ;146.75XYZ*111111z4904.29N/09706.79Wr146.750MHz TOFF -060
>
> The Kenwood D710 will correctly interpret this shorter format:
>
> ;146.75XYZ*111111z4904.29N/09706.79WrTOFF -060
>
> The Yaesu actually gets the frequency from the comment portion, i.e. the
> part following, in the above example, ...06.79Wr, as it cannot actually
> correctly interpret a frequency object.
>
> Note that the Yaesu requires fff.fffMHz, i.e. 3 digits before and after
> the decimal point.
>
> The net effect is that the beacon is increased in length by 11 bytes in
> order to provide Kenwood & Yaesu compatibility.
>
> The XYZ in the leading part of the string, which would be just XY if a
> frequency such as 146.755 were specified, is very handy as in the D710
> display list those characters help you recognize the repeater location
> based upon the choice of these letters. For example Thief River Falls, MN
> would be shown as 146.75TRF in the displayed list.
>
> In my travels I find that very few digipeaters are actually transmitting
> these useful beacons. All of mine are, and I wish this would become
> standard practice, minimizing the need for a repeater directory in the car!
>
> The Yaesu web page indicates that the FTM-350AR is out of production!
> It's replacement, it seems, is a FTM-400DR. However, reading the documents
> for the FTM-400DR, it does not appear to include a QSY function based upon
> a frequency object beacon! I have been transmitting the D710 version noted
> above for several years, covering all of NW Minnesota, and only in the last
> few weeks have been asked why this did not work for the FTM-350AR. I would
> guess few FTM-350AR's were sold vs the D710.
>
> Ron, AE5E
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> aprssig mailing list
> aprssig-***@public.gmane.org
> http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
>
>

[Keith VE7GDH]

Ron AE5E wrote...

> the FTM-350AR is out of production! Its replacement, it seems,
> is a FTM-400DR. However, reading the documents for the FTM-400DR,
> it does not appear to include a QSY function based upon a
> frequency object beacon!

The FTM-400D does very much have a QSY function. The station list can be
sorted by distance, time or callsign and the list can be filtered for
among other things to show just stations that are sending their
listening frequency. It has a TNC and GPS built in and makes a very nice
APRS radio, as well as doing digital C4FM FDMA.

--
73 Keith VE7GDH

[Keith VE7GDH]

Ron AE5E wrote...

> I looked at the PDF manuals on Yaesu's website for the
> FTM-400D and could not find what you are describing.

Was that the general FTM-400 operating manual? The QSY feature is
described on page 20 of the APRS manual.

> Does the FTM-400D process Frequency Objects as described in
> http://www.aprs.org/localinfo.html ?

I think that would be a yes, but that page is a real dogs breakfast.
Rather than having me guess exactly which part of the page you are
referring to, perhaps you could just copy and the paste the pertinent
part(s) into a reply. I could create such an object and test it if needed.

I can tell you that it doesn't have any trouble QSYing to a frequency
beaconed by an APRS station. It can also QSY to frequencies embedded in
an object... e.g. a repeater object or one for an IRLP node as long as
it includes the frequency in the correct format. The minimum it needs is
e.g. 147.320MHz and it will QSY to that frequency with the correct
offset if it has auto repeater shift turned on. Of course, if a tone is
needed, that should be in the object too. If it was a UHF frequency, the
object should include the offset.

Hmmm... I was just fooling around to see if I could get it to go to a
minus offset for 147.320 MHz embedded in an object and was not successful.

--
73 Keith VE7GDH
UI-View32
www.uiview.org

[Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)]

On 6/25/2014 12:23 AM, Keith VE7GDH wrote:
> Hmmm... I was just fooling around to see if I could get it to go to a
> minus offset for 147.320 MHz embedded in an object and was not
> successful.
>

It may be that the FTM-400 is actually ignoring the offset and applying
it's internal automatic offset to the QSY frequency. Can you do a quick
object test with a non-standard offset and see if the radio still
insists on 600?

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

[Ron Stordahl, AE5E]

Lynn

Yes it does look like the FTM-400 has a QSY function, but the fine details are not revealed.  I am going to guess that it is compatible with the FTM-350, so this would be acceptable:

;146.75XYZ*111111z4904.29N/09706.79Wr146.750MHz TOFF -060

I am not sure how this will display on the panel however.

I wish someone who has one could verify this experimentally.

Ron, AE5E





On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 6:24 AM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) <ldeffenb-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:




On 6/25/2014 12:23 AM, Keith VE7GDH wrote:
> Hmmm... I was just fooling around to see if I could get it to go to a
> minus offset for 147.320 MHz embedded in an object and was not
> successful.
>

It may be that the FTM-400 is actually ignoring the offset and applying
it's internal automatic offset to the QSY frequency.  Can you do a quick
object test with a non-standard offset and see if the radio still
insists on 600?

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

[Keith VE7GDH]

Ron AE5E wrote...

> ;146.75XYZ*111111z4904.29N/09706.79Wr146.750MHz TOFF -060
> I am not sure how this will display on the panel however.
> I wish someone who has one could verify this experimentally.

It would show in the station list as "146.75XYZ". I very much prefer
repeater callsigns appended with -R, but I am not in the majority. The
"QSY" button would be highlighted on the screen and if the radio was in
VFO mode. it would QSY to 675 with a minus offset and no tone when pressed.

--
73 Keith VE7GDH

[Keith VE7GDH]

Lynn KJ4ERJ wrote...

> It may be that the FTM-400 is actually ignoring the offset and
> applying it's internal automatic offset to the QSY frequency.
> Can you do a quick object test with a non-standard offset and
> see if the radio still insists on 600?

It appears that I goofed earlier. The FTM-400D will QSY to + or - offset
as specified in an APRS beacon or object, including non-standard
offsets. I had used e.g. C88 instead of C088 in an earlier test and that
made all of the difference. When I use Tnnn or Cnnn, I can specify
oddball offsets or directions. Sorry for the false alarm!

The FTM-400D is a nice radio, for voice and APRS. It also does digital
C4FM FDMA. The FT1DR is pretty nice too, but doesn't appear to have the
QSY feature.

--
73 Keith VE7GDH

[David Andrzejewski]

Tangentially-related: What is the correct syntax for 70cm frequencies,
e.g. 444.8125?

Would it be:

444.8125 *111111z4136.06N/08114.22Wr444.812MHz T131 +500

or:

444.8125 *111111z4136.06N/08114.22Wr444.8125MHz T131 +500

Note in the comment field, the first example only has three digits after
the decimal and the second has all four.

- Dave/KD8TWG

On 2014-06-25 14:27, Keith VE7GDH wrote:
> Lynn KJ4ERJ wrote...
>
>> It may be that the FTM-400 is actually ignoring the offset and
>> applying it's internal automatic offset to the QSY frequency.
>> Can you do a quick object test with a non-standard offset and
>> see if the radio still insists on 600?
>
> It appears that I goofed earlier. The FTM-400D will QSY to + or -
> offset as specified in an APRS beacon or object, including
> non-standard offsets. I had used e.g. C88 instead of C088 in an
> earlier test and that made all of the difference. When I use Tnnn or
> Cnnn, I can specify oddball offsets or directions. Sorry for the false
> alarm!
>
> The FTM-400D is a nice radio, for voice and APRS. It also does digital
> C4FM FDMA. The FT1DR is pretty nice too, but doesn't appear to have
> the QSY feature.

[Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)]

The frequency specification only provides for nnn.nnnMHz (3 dot 3) for
the frequency. Any deviation from this will likely not be recognized by
the radio firmware. The FTM-350 (and likely the -400) are even case
sensitive on the MHz!

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


On 6/25/2014 3:45 PM, David Andrzejewski wrote:
> Tangentially-related: What is the correct syntax for 70cm frequencies,
> e.g. 444.8125?
>
> Would it be:
>
> 444.8125 *111111z4136.06N/08114.22Wr444.812MHz T131 +500
>
> or:
>
> 444.8125 *111111z4136.06N/08114.22Wr444.8125MHz T131 +500
>
> Note in the comment field, the first example only has three digits
> after the decimal and the second has all four.
>
> - Dave/KD8TWG
>
> On 2014-06-25 14:27, Keith VE7GDH wrote:
>> Lynn KJ4ERJ wrote...
>>
>>> It may be that the FTM-400 is actually ignoring the offset and
>>> applying it's internal automatic offset to the QSY frequency.
>>> Can you do a quick object test with a non-standard offset and
>>> see if the radio still insists on 600?
>>
>> It appears that I goofed earlier. The FTM-400D will QSY to + or -
>> offset as specified in an APRS beacon or object, including
>> non-standard offsets. I had used e.g. C88 instead of C088 in an
>> earlier test and that made all of the difference. When I use Tnnn or
>> Cnnn, I can specify oddball offsets or directions. Sorry for the false
>> alarm!
>>
>> The FTM-400D is a nice radio, for voice and APRS. It also does digital
>> C4FM FDMA. The FT1DR is pretty nice too, but doesn't appear to have
>> the QSY feature.
> _______________________________________________
> aprssig mailing list
> aprssig-***@public.gmane.org
> http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
>

[Keith VE7GDH]

Dave KD8TWG wrote...

> What is the correct syntax for 70cm frequencies, e.g. 444.8125?
>
> Would it be:
> 444.8125 *111111z4136.06N/08114.22Wr444.812MHz T131 +500
> or:
> 444.8125 *111111z4136.06N/08114.22Wr444.8125MHz T131 +500
>
> Note in the comment field, the first example only has three
> digits after the decimal and the second has all four.

I tried 444.8125MHz T131 +500 and the FTM-400D would not QSY. However,
shortened to 444.812MHz T131 +500 it would QSY and took me to 444.8125
MHz with the correct tone and offset.

--
73 Keith VE7GDH
UI-View32
www.uiview.org

[Ron Stordahl, AE5E]

Keith et al


Can I assume you have a FTM-400D and have confirmed that a frequency object such as:


;146.75XYZ*111111z4904.29N/09706.79Wr146.750MHz TOFF -060

actually works with the QSY feature of that radio?  If so I will feel confident to revise this old document:

http://www.dxspots.com/aprs/frequency_objects/d710a%20Compatible%20aprs%20frequency%20objects.htm

to add the FTM-350 & FTM-400.  The update increases the length of the object by 11 bytes.  Hopefully this will not significantly increase the packet error rate.  I do wish that the Yaesu radios did follow the spec for frequency objects, but they don't, requiring the frequency information to be duplicated in the tail section of the object.


Not that I expect too many to see this and correctly program their digi's!  If you surf around on aprs.fi you will see there is a scarcity such objects.  There are metropolitan areas without a single frequency object, or at least one in correct format.  Perhaps Bob's document APRS Local Info Initiative could be updated to make it a bit easier to understand.  That was what I was trying to do with my puny document effort, which I realize few will ever see!

Ron, AE5E



On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 1:29 PM, Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:



Lynn KJ4ERJ wrote...

> It may be that the FTM-400 is actually ignoring the offset and
> applying it's internal automatic offset to the QSY frequency.
> Can you do a quick object test with a non-standard offset and
> see if the radio still insists on 600?

It appears that I goofed earlier. The FTM-400D will QSY to + or - offset
as specified in an APRS beacon or object, including non-standard
offsets. I had used e.g. C88 instead of C088 in an earlier test and that
made all of the difference. When I use Tnnn or Cnnn, I can specify
oddball offsets or directions. Sorry for the false alarm!

The FTM-400D is a nice radio, for voice and APRS. It also does digital
C4FM FDMA. The FT1DR is pretty nice too, but doesn't appear to have the
QSY feature.

--
73 Keith VE7GDH

[Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)]

On 6/25/2014 4:43 PM, Ron Stordahl, AE5E wrote:
>
> to add the FTM-350 & FTM-400. The update increases the length of the
> object by 11 bytes. Hopefully this will not significantly increase
> the packet error rate. I do wish that the Yaesu radios did follow the
> spec for frequency objects, but they don't, requiring the frequency
> information to be duplicated in the tail section of the object.

They did follow the spec which allows the object to be of any name and
provides for the frequency at the beginning of the comment. The bit
they left out is picking the frequency up from the object name. At least
they did something that can be compatible with the Kenwood APRS radios
and don't require double beacons of the same information in two
different formats.

>
> Not that I expect too many to see this and correctly program their
> digi's! If you surf around on aprs.fi you will see there is a
> scarcity such objects. There are metropolitan areas without a single
> frequency object, or at least one in correct format. Perhaps Bob's
> document APRS Local Info Initiative
> <http://www.aprs.org/localinfo.html> could be updated to make it a bit
> easier to understand. That was what I was trying to do with my puny
> document effort, which I realize few will ever see!

The following map shows the FreqSpec-containing stations across the USA:

Whereas the following one shows the ones that appear to be trying to
include frequency information, but they're not fully spec compliant:


Issues flagged by APRSISCE/32 include, but are not limited to:

No FTM-350: 147.165DE which says: T167 +060

No MHz: EL-338340 which has: 442.250 T136 R63m n9umj

PL tone: IRLP-7842 which has: 448.200MHz PL tone 100CONNECTED

+offset: IRLP3381 which has: 147.200MHz+ PL103.5: LINK CLEAR

Standalone +/-: 449.875-H which has: 449.875 - 5 107.2 PL VE6YXR
REPEATER SYSTEM

k/m casing on range: 146.760dl which says: 146.760MHz T107 R50M N7YET Dillon

Decimal T/D/C: VE2OSR-9 which has: 447.1250Mhz T103.5 -500 QSO sur VE2PCQ

And here's one that might be usable by people, but not by radios!

444.325NC which has: http://www.carolina440.net 444.325 Mhz PL 100 Hz

If you run APRSISCE/32 and select View / Freq w/Issues, you can ask the
local stations to get their beacons to be spec-compliant. APRSISCE/32
will rummage through an entire packet trying to find frequency
information which it parses and displays, but radios aren't as smart.

Oh, and the most frequent issue is the No FTM-350 because the frequency
is only in the object name and not in the comment.

Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32