Here we go again...sigh

[k***@public.gmane.org]

Note the path chosen:
 
 
2014-07-11 07:46:05 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,KD8SKP:/144603h4114.17N/08301.05WO168/032/A=035184|"T!!!!|!wcN!
2014-07-11 07:46:35 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,KD8REV-1:/144633h4113.87N/08300.97WO170/042/A=035581|"U!!!!|!wm9!
2014-07-11 07:47:05 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,K8TB-8:/144704h4113.55N/08300.93WO176/039/A=035962|"V!!!!|!wOu!
2014-07-11 07:47:06 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,W8HHF-15:/144633h4113.87N/08300.97WO170/042/A=035581|"U!!!!|!wm9! [Duplicate telemetry sequence, Delayed or out-of-order packet (sequence number)]
2014-07-11 07:47:34 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,W8GUC:/144733h4113.21N/08300.90WO172/037/A=036356|"W!!!!|!wc[!
2014-07-11 07:48:01 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,W8HHF-15:/144704h4113.55N/08300.93WO176/039/A=035962|"V!!!!|!wOu! [Duplicate telemetry sequence, Delayed or out-of-order packet (sequence number)]
2014-07-11 07:48:35 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,KD8REV-1:/144834h4112.50N/08300.87WO170/045/A=037081|"Y!!!!|!wWV!
2014-07-11 07:49:35 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,KD8SKP:>BalloonSat Test MicroTrak 400
2014-07-11 07:49:35 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,W8HHF-15:/144834h4112.50N/08300.87WO170/045/A=037081|"Y!!!!|!wWV! [Duplicate telemetry sequence, Delayed or out-of-order packet (sequence number)]
2014-07-11 07:50:35 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,KD8REV-1:/145033h4111.23N/08300.64WO161/041/A=038527|"]!!!!|!w*O!
2014-07-11 07:51:10 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,W8HHF-15:/145033h4111.23N/08300.64WO161/041/A=038527|"]!!!!|!w*O! [Duplicate telemetry sequence, Delayed or out-of-order packet (sequence number)]
2014-07-11 07:52:15 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,W8HHF-15,K8UI-1,WIDE2*,qAR,W8HHF-15:/145033h4111.23N/08300.64WO161/041/A=038527|"]!!!!|!w*O! [Duplicate telemetry sequence, Delayed or out-of-order packet (sequence number)]

< previous

 
 

[Jeff Dugas (Mobile)]

NOTHING at 38,000+ feet should have any path. This is pure abuse.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Post by k***@public.gmane.org
 
 
2014-07-11 07:46:05 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,KD8SKP:/144603h4114.17N/08301.05WO168/032/A=035184|"T!!!!|!wcN!
2014-07-11 07:46:35 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,KD8REV-1:/144633h4113.87N/08300.97WO170/042/A=035581|"U!!!!|!wm9!
2014-07-11 07:47:05 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,K8TB-8:/144704h4113.55N/08300.93WO176/039/A=035962|"V!!!!|!wOu!
2014-07-11 07:47:06 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,W8HHF-15:/144633h4113.87N/08300.97WO170/042/A=035581|"U!!!!|!wm9! [Duplicate telemetry sequence, Delayed or out-of-order packet (sequence number)]
2014-07-11 07:47:34 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,W8GUC:/144733h4113.21N/08300.90WO172/037/A=036356|"W!!!!|!wc[!
2014-07-11 07:48:01 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,W8HHF-15:/144704h4113.55N/08300.93WO176/039/A=035962|"V!!!!|!wOu! [Duplicate telemetry sequence, Delayed or out-of-order packet (sequence number)]
2014-07-11 07:48:35 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,KD8REV-1:/144834h4112.50N/08300.87WO170/045/A=037081|"Y!!!!|!wWV!
2014-07-11 07:49:35 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,KD8SKP:>BalloonSat Test MicroTrak 400
2014-07-11 07:49:35 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,W8HHF-15:/144834h4112.50N/08300.87WO170/045/A=037081|"Y!!!!|!wWV! [Duplicate telemetry sequence, Delayed or out-of-order packet (sequence number)]
2014-07-11 07:50:35 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,KD8REV-1:/145033h4111.23N/08300.64WO161/041/A=038527|"]!!!!|!w*O!
2014-07-11 07:51:10 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,W8HHF-15:/145033h4111.23N/08300.64WO161/041/A=038527|"]!!!!|!w*O! [Duplicate telemetry sequence, Delayed or out-of-order packet (sequence number)]
2014-07-11 07:52:15 PDT: KB8PVR-5>APT314,W8HHF-15,K8UI-1,WIDE2*,qAR,W8HHF-15:/145033h4111.23N/08300.64WO161/041/A=038527|"]!!!!|!w*O! [Duplicate telemetry sequence, Delayed or out-of-order packet (sequence number)]
< previous
 
 
_______________________________________________
aprssig mailing list
http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig

[Kenneth Finnegan]

On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Jeff Dugas (Mobile)

NOTHING at 38,000+ feet should have any path. This is pure abuse.

Fine. So how are users supposed to know this? Where in the APRS spec
does it say anything more specific than "use your best judgement"?

We've been finding examples of people making bad path choices and
bemoaning them on this mailing list for a decade, but how were they
supposed to know? If we don't give any specific guidance to users, how
can we expect them to always make their own choices that agree with
our judgement?
--
Kenneth Finnegan, W6KWF
http://blog.thelifeofkenneth.com/

[Herb Gerhardt]

The proper way of notifying a person who is using the wrong paths or making
other mistakes, is to contact them OFF LINE and try to help them out.

As far as I am concerned, there was nothing done wrong which has any major
consequences. According to:
http://www.db0anf.de/app/aprs/stations/mobile-KB8PVR-5 he put out 124
packets on his balloon flight today. That is no big deal to the system. It
can handle one time burst like that just fine and there is no reason to make
any attacks or ridicule anyone for an occasional occurrence like this.
Educating individuals in private is great but public ridicule is NOT!

Keep in mind we are AMATEUR RADIO OPERATORS and we MUST HAVE FUN in our
hobby..... Great flight David, hope you recovered it just fine.....


Herb, KB7UVC
NW APRS Group, West Sound Coordinator
Our WEB Site: http://www.nwaprs.info

-----Original Message-----

Of

Kenneth Finnegan
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 1:52 PM
To: TAPR APRS Mailing List
Subject: Re: [aprssig] Here we go again...sigh
On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Jeff Dugas (Mobile)

NOTHING at 38,000+ feet should have any path. This is pure abuse.

Fine. So how are users supposed to know this? Where in the APRS spec does

it say

anything more specific than "use your best judgement"?
We've been finding examples of people making bad path choices and

bemoaning

them on this mailing list for a decade, but how were they supposed to

know? If we

don't give any specific guidance to users, how can we expect them to

always make

their own choices that agree with our judgement?
--
Kenneth Finnegan, W6KWF
http://blog.thelifeofkenneth.com/
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aprssig mailing list
http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig

[Steve Noskowicz]

 
Well, I tried, though reading it now, so long after writing it, I'm not sure I have it quite right.  I am open to recommendations for changing my document.  See Page 4:
  http://k9dci.home.comcast.net/APRS%20Beginner%20Guide%20-%20K9DCI%20Ver%205-1.pdf 
 
Located here:
  http://k9dci.home.comcast.net/~k9dci/site/?/page/APRS_Beginner_INFO/ 
 
Comcast appears to be getting ready to killing its personal web pages without telling anyone, so I don't know how long this will be a valid URL.
 
73, Steve, K9DCI [at arrl dot net]

From: Kenneth Finnegan <kennethfinnegan2007-***@public.gmane.org>
 

On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Jeff Dugas (Mobile)

NOTHING at 38,000+ feet should have any path. This is pure abuse.

Fine. So how are users supposed to know this? Where in the APRS spec
does it say anything more specific than "use your best judgement"?

We've been finding examples of people making bad path choices and
bemoaning them on this mailing list for a decade, but how were they
supposed to know? If we don't give any specific guidance to users, how
can we expect them to always make their own choices that agree with
our judgement?
--
Kenneth Finnegan, W6KWF
http://blog.thelifeofkenneth.com/

[Jason KG4WSV]

Post by k***@public.gmane.org
KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,KD8SKP:/144603h4114.17N/08301.05WO168/032/A=035184|"T!!!!|!wcN!
KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,KD8REV-1:/144633h4113.87N/08300.97WO170/042/A=035581|"U!!!!|!wm9!
KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,K8TB-8:/144704h4113.55N/08300.93WO176/039/A=035962|"V!!!!|!wOu!
KB8PVR-5>APT314,WIDE1-1,qAR,W8HHF-15:/144633h4113.87N/08300.97WO170/042/A=035581|"U!!!!|!wm9!
[Duplicate telemetry sequence, Delayed or out-of-order packet (sequence
number)]

So, did you notice the _actual_ _problem_ revealed here, which is an
infrastructure node (igate/digi) that is delaying packets?


Someone using a path with an extra hop on a balloon: big deal! It's
over in an hour and a half.

Someone using obsolete or misconfigured hardware for APRS
infrastructure: a real problem that is with us 365 days a year.

-Jason
kg4wsv

[Jim Wagner]

I'd bet that most of the balloon folks are occasional or rare APRS users. Maybe never before. How are they to know - bet they have no information that even tells them how a digi path works, let alone the knowledge to make a "best judgement".

Is there a central web site (or several) where balloon people go for technical information? That would be a great place to post something about configuring APRS for balloon flights.

How about QST or other general distribution ham venues? A short bit on beacon rates and preferred paths for balloons might actually get where it needs to go.

Jim Wagner, KA7EHK
Tangent, OR, USA

[Chuck Gooden]

Jim,

You have a good idea and it would be nice if you could write the article
for QST. Writing an article may require some research on your part but
that would be part of the learning process and would increase your
knowledge in the hobby. I would encourage you to take action and make
it happen.

Chuck Gooden - N9QBT
Rockford, IL

Post by Jim Wagner
I'd bet that most of the balloon folks are occasional or rare APRS users. Maybe never before. How are they to know - bet they have no information that even tells them how a digi path works, let alone the knowledge to make a "best judgement".
Is there a central web site (or several) where balloon people go for technical information? That would be a great place to post something about configuring APRS for balloon flights.
How about QST or other general distribution ham venues? A short bit on beacon rates and preferred paths for balloons might actually get where it needs to go.
Jim Wagner, KA7EHK
Tangent, OR, USA
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http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig

[Christopher Snell]

There's a great document that Jerry Gable KF7MVY put together:

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/6764416/243730317/name/APRS.pdf

The problem is that it's a PDF and not ranked very highly by Google's
search index. It would make a great front-page addition to www.aprs.org
or, better yet, a dedicated APRS-on-balloons page that would be more likely
to be found by HABers. Besides the PATH tutorial, other useful info might
include links to the various commercial and homebrew trackers,
balloon-compatible antenna designs, tracking software, lists of potential
iGate volunteers for non-144.39 freqs, etc.

I just registered a domain for a HAB-specific APRS page: *aprshab.org
<http://aprshab.org>*. I know that Bob Bruninga has a trademark on APRS
but if he will approve, I will set up and host a wiki that we can populate
(as a community) with balloon-specific APRS knowledge. Bob, if you don't
approve, I'll ditch the domain.

Thoughts?

Chris NW5W

Post by Chuck Gooden
Jim,
You have a good idea and it would be nice if you could write the article
for QST. Writing an article may require some research on your part but
that would be part of the learning process and would increase your
knowledge in the hobby. I would encourage you to take action and make it
happen.
Chuck Gooden - N9QBT
Rockford, IL

Post by Jim Wagner
I'd bet that most of the balloon folks are occasional or rare APRS users.
Maybe never before. How are they to know - bet they have no information
that even tells them how a digi path works, let alone the knowledge to make
a "best judgement".
Is there a central web site (or several) where balloon people go for
technical information? That would be a great place to post something about
configuring APRS for balloon flights.
How about QST or other general distribution ham venues? A short bit on
beacon rates and preferred paths for balloons might actually get where it
needs to go.
Jim Wagner, KA7EHK
Tangent, OR, USA
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http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig

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[David Andrzejewski]

For now, I've added a high-altitude balloon section to the APRS wiki:

http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=Paths#High-Altitude_Balloon_Stations


At least it's a start... although I wonder where people are getting
their instructions from. If they're just using an off-the-shelf tracker,
it may have default settings that they're using... and the only
documentation they would likely be reading is the documentation included
with the tracker. I'd bet that most trackers don't come with HAB-related
info ;)

- Dave

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/6764416/243730317/name/APRS.pdf [1]
The problem is that it's a PDF and not ranked very highly by Google's search index. It would make a great front-page addition to www.aprs.org [2] or, better yet, a dedicated APRS-on-balloons page that would be more likely to be found by HABers. Besides the PATH tutorial, other useful info might include links to the various commercial and homebrew trackers, balloon-compatible antenna designs, tracking software, lists of potential iGate volunteers for non-144.39 freqs, etc.
I just registered a domain for a HAB-specific APRS page: APRSHAB.ORG [3]. I know that Bob Bruninga has a trademark on APRS but if he will approve, I will set up and host a wiki that we can populate (as a community) with balloon-specific APRS knowledge. Bob, if you don't approve, I'll ditch the domain.
Thoughts?
Chris NW5W
Jim,
You have a good idea and it would be nice if you could write the article for QST. Writing an article may require some research on your part but that would be part of the learning process and would increase your knowledge in the hobby. I would encourage you to take action and make it happen.
Chuck Gooden - N9QBT
Rockford, IL
I'd bet that most of the balloon folks are occasional or rare APRS users. Maybe never before. How are they to know - bet they have no information that even tells them how a digi path works, let alone the knowledge to make a "best judgement".
Is there a central web site (or several) where balloon people go for technical information? That would be a great place to post something about configuring APRS for balloon flights.
How about QST or other general distribution ham venues? A short bit on beacon rates and preferred paths for balloons might actually get where it needs to go.
Jim Wagner, KA7EHK
Tangent, OR, USA
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http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig [4]
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Links:

[Cap Pennell]

Remember your International APRS wiki,
http://info.aprs.net


including
http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=Paths


73, Cap KE6AFE

[David Andrzejewski]

I attempted to edit this page on the APRS wiki to add a balloon section,
but it appears I am not allowed to edit it because I do not have an
account, and I am not allowed to create an account.

- Dave/KD8TWG

Post by Cap Pennell
Remember your International APRS wiki,
http://info.aprs.net
including
http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=Paths
73, Cap KE6AFE
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[Tom Russo]

Post by David Andrzejewski
I attempted to edit this page on the APRS wiki to add a balloon section,
but it appears I am not allowed to edit it because I do not have an
account, and I am not allowed to create an account.

I am one of the sysadmins for info.aprs.net, and if you contact me off-list,
I can arrange to create an account for you.

Unfortunately, automated creation of accounts had to be disabled because the
site had been overrun with spam (thousands of spam pages and script-created
login IDs). But the sysadmins can still create accounts for people manually.

The site owner is Scott Miller, and he also frequents this list and can create
accounts.

Post by David Andrzejewski

Post by Cap Pennell
Remember your International APRS wiki,
http://info.aprs.net
including
http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=Paths

[David Andrzejewski]

I think there really should be a concise "if this is your application, this is the path you should use" document. I know there is extensive documentation on pathing out there, but an FAQ-style would be great.


--
David Andrzejewski/KD8TWG

Post by Jim Wagner
I'd bet that most of the balloon folks are occasional or rare APRS users. Maybe never before. How are they to know - bet they have no information that even tells them how a digi path works, let alone the knowledge to make a "best judgement".
Is there a central web site (or several) where balloon people go for technical information? That would be a great place to post something about configuring APRS for balloon flights.
How about QST or other general distribution ham venues? A short bit on beacon rates and preferred paths for balloons might actually get where it needs to go.
Jim Wagner, KA7EHK
Tangent, OR, USA
_______________________________________________
aprssig mailing list
http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig

[Jeff Dugas (Mobile)]

There is already a lot of information published on APRS web site.

The following is taken directly from the following page of that site: http://www.aprs.org/balloons.html

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
General APRS Balloon Configuration

APRS BALLOONS: Balloons make a good low cost test bed for small satellite payloads. Mission duration may last from a few hours to a few days and just about matches the modern student's attention span. The Naval Academy balloons are typically detected as far away as South Carolina and Conneticut.

APRS SETTINGS: It is critical to use the proper APRS setting for balloons which are UNIQUE compared to normal APRS operations. Wrong settings can disturb the APRS network over half the country and affect tens of thousands of APRS users over several hours. This has always been problematic. No path (simplex direct) is all that is needed above 1000 feet since every APRS station within hundreds of square miles will hear it directly. Next, nothing more than a single hop (WIDE1-1) is desired once the balloon is on the ground and lost..

DO NOT USE WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 Path! This is much worse then even WIDE2-2. This is because most of the WIDE1-1 digipeaters only do callsign substitution and are not part of the WIDEn-N algorithm. When these packets get delayed for whatever reason by a second or so, then other digi's hear them and can end up with multiple dupes from every nearby digipeater. There is no need to have 2 hops either. If your chase team is not within 30 miles of the landing, then it is your fault. Dont make up for it by jamming the APRS network over half the country.

PACKET RATES: These balloons will be seen by everyone within hundreds of miles, and although they do not add more than the equivalent of a single local mobile traveler, they should adhere to the same gentlemenly rules of channel sharing as everyone else. In that regard, short duration flights should never use a packet period any shorter than once a minute. For cross country longer duration flights, a 2 minute rate should be considered.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =