Discussion:
Yet Another Clueless Balloon Launch
Stephen H. Smith
2014-06-26 17:01:38 UTC
Permalink
WB9SKY-11 is currently beaconing every two minutes on a WIDE1-1.WIDE2-1 path
from 66000 feet about 40-50 miles south of Chicago.

The message after the posit says "Adler Planetarium Balloo"

From my vantage point in central Michigan (Lansing/East Lansing area), I am
seeing 7 to 9 digipeats of every transmission from every possible combination
of two digis involving every digipeater in the southern half of Michigan's
lower penninsula.


__________________________________________________________
WD8ARZ
2014-06-26 19:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Speaking of clueless, I have no idea who you are. Whats your call sign?
There is a lot of info I can get from that.

73 from Bill - WD8ARZ Geiger Counter Mobile Station named NULL
that uses GPS and APRS location data - http://www.radiationnetwork.com/
WD8ARZ-7 HT TH-D7AG - APRS
WD8ARZ-9 Mobile TM-D700AG - APRS 100Hz pl - Monitoring 146.52
WD8ARZ-10 Android Smart Phone - "APRSdroid" and "U2APRS" - APRS
"APRS Viewer" on Android for displaying APRS stations only, no beacon /
transmitting.
Using Kenwood's SkyCommand mode to operate HF with my HT
Post by Stephen H. Smith
WB9SKY-11 is currently beaconing every two minutes on a
WIDE1-1.WIDE2-1 path from 66000 feet about 40-50 miles south of Chicago.
The message after the posit says "Adler Planetarium Balloo"
From my vantage point in central Michigan (Lansing/East Lansing area),
I am seeing 7 to 9 digipeats of every transmission from every possible
combination of two digis involving every digipeater in the southern
half of Michigan's lower penninsula.
Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
2014-06-26 19:47:11 UTC
Permalink
You're right. He seems to have lost his standard (albeit verbose)
Stephen H. Smith wa8lmf (at) aol.com
Skype: WA8LMF
EchoLink: Node # 14400 [Think bottom of the 2-meter band]
Home Page: http://wa8lmf.net
Long-Range APRS on 30 Meters HF
http://wa8lmf.net/aprs/HF_APRS_Notes.htm
High Performance Sound Systems for Soundcard Apps
http://wa8lmf.net/ham/imic.htm
http://wa8lmf.net/ham/uca202.htm
"APRS 101" Explanation of APRS Path Selection & Digipeating
http://wa8lmf.net/DigiPaths
Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
Speaking of clueless, I have no idea who you are. Whats your call
sign? There is a lot of info I can get from that.
73 from Bill - WD8ARZ Geiger Counter Mobile Station named NULL
that uses GPS and APRS location data - http://www.radiationnetwork.com/
WD8ARZ-7 HT TH-D7AG - APRS
WD8ARZ-9 Mobile TM-D700AG - APRS 100Hz pl - Monitoring 146.52
WD8ARZ-10 Android Smart Phone - "APRSdroid" and "U2APRS" - APRS
"APRS Viewer" on Android for displaying APRS stations only, no beacon /
transmitting.
Using Kenwood's SkyCommand mode to operate HF with my HT
Post by Stephen H. Smith
WB9SKY-11 is currently beaconing every two minutes on a
WIDE1-1.WIDE2-1 path from 66000 feet about 40-50 miles south of Chicago.
The message after the posit says "Adler Planetarium Balloo"
From my vantage point in central Michigan (Lansing/East Lansing
area), I am seeing 7 to 9 digipeats of every transmission from every
possible combination of two digis involving every digipeater in the
southern half of Michigan's lower penninsula.
_______________________________________________
aprssig mailing list
http://www.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo/aprssig
WD8ARZ
2014-06-26 19:59:43 UTC
Permalink
NOW I recall him. We have chatted / emailed in the past, but I wasnt
making a connection.

Thanks to both of you.
73 from Bill - WD8ARZ
Bob Burns W9BU
2014-06-26 20:00:52 UTC
Permalink
OTOH, a quick look at the email address of the sender would reveal it to be
wa8lmf2-5uyhOP+***@public.gmane.org You s'pose Stephen's call sign is WA8LMF? Not to hard to
figure that one out.

While we are taking etiquette pot shots, what about 7-8 signature lines?
Isn't that a bit excessive?

Bob...
WD8ARZ
2014-06-26 20:47:10 UTC
Permalink
Shucks, email address placed in Bounce, Delete, BlackList - Shame
Post by Bob Burns W9BU
OTOH, a quick look at the email address of the sender would reveal it
call sign is WA8LMF? Not to hard to figure that one out.
While we are taking etiquette pot shots, what about 7-8 signature
lines? Isn't that a bit excessive?
Bob...
Chris Howard w0ep
2014-06-26 21:32:49 UTC
Permalink
You're kidding, right?
Post by WD8ARZ
Shucks, email address placed in Bounce, Delete, BlackList - Shame
WD8ARZ
2014-07-11 18:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Frequently on long haul mobile trips, I found that running Both the
TM-D700AG APRS and the Smart Phone U2APRS or APRSdroid apps,
complimented each other very well. The Smart phone provided an internet
link as well as ran the APRS app. As long as it was possible to make a
voice phone call, that same signal was good enough to provide the
internet feed. That phone link also provided the internet to my laptop
that fed data during the trip to a map site online as well (Geiger
Counter Data - do a google of WD8ARZ for more info)

When the RF side was not finding other hams aprs relay stations feeding
my APRS stream to the internet, my cell phone app frequently were. Also
when there was no cell phone signal for that side to function, there was
frequently a ham side that was getting my APRS data out to the internet
world.

NEITHER method was one hundred percent coverage. At times, neither had a
path to function with for the 'internet' ... but dont forget that there
are still local hams that can copy your signal whither your know it or not.

Dont forget that we can also do HF APRS operation in North America on
10.1 MHz with 300 baud 200-hertz-shift with hf packet.

Then there was good ol hf, vhf and uhf voice. Had many an enjoyable chat
with other hams, and some of those chats were triggered by the other
hams calling me on 146.52 because they copied my APRS transmission that
included my text 'Monitoring 146.52 100HZ PL'. I would do the same when
another APRS mobile station moved with in my rf line of sight copy as
seen on my G5 Navigation system. That G5 provided the GPS signal to the
TM-D700AG, and also displayed the APRS signals heard on the radio to the
display of the Avmap Geosat 5 navigation unit.

Make sure to use and listen with Voice Alert. Read about that system
directly from Bob as copied below.

Plus there were times that the WX Data fed by so many APRS stations was
so important to me and my family for very Local information. Even the
alerts some provide gave additional situational awareness while
traveling. Have even received text messages from friends in other states
via APRS. The TM-D700AG was configured to read out the text message in
voice using the voice module option. When those came in, it was some
times surprising and my wife and I would be looking around for 'who was
that?" expressions on our faces.... hi hi

For those that dont do APRS because of concerns about security for their
home when they are not there, they should know that they dont have to
have their home address available to the public when their call sign is
looked up.

FCC 605 Form Application available at:
http://transition.fcc.gov/Forms/Form605/605.html
Notice that Line 15 asks for your address as a post office box address.
Line 16 is the street address location. My last updating I did have
information in both line 15 and 16. If you look at my call sign on QRZ,
you will note that only my post office box number is listed, not my
street address. On my license form, one side has the pob, the other side
has the street address. The FCC provides your line 15 data to the public
side, and uses the line 16 data for its usage.

73 from Bill - WD8ARZ
WD8ARZ-7 HT TH-D7AG
WD8ARZ-9 Mobile TM-D700AG
WD8ARZ-10 Android Smart Phone - APRSdroid and U2APRS
APRS Viewer on Android for displaying APRS stations only, no beacon /
transmitting.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [aprssig] Voice Alert while traveling!
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 18:09:40 -0500
From: Robert Bruninga <bruninga-***@public.gmane.org>
Reply-To: TAPR APRS Mailing List <aprssig-***@public.gmane.org>
To: aprssig-***@public.gmane.org, aprs-***@public.gmane.org

Don’t forget to use and listen with Voice Alert.

This simply means running CTCSS100 on your APRS radio’s band (144.39 in
USA). You will hear any other APRS station in simplex range and he will
hear you if you make a quick Voice Call on 144.39 and suggest QSY to
“52”. But with CTCSS you wont hear anything else.

Its like a free radar detector for nearby APRS mobiles in simplex
range. Why waste a perfectly good always-on-channel by having the
volume turned down! Set CTCSS100 and be available for a local call.

The best way to operate APRS is to program several APRS channels in your
radio:

1) “APRS raw” – 144.39 simplex no tone squelch

2) “APRS VA” - 144.39 simplex CTCSS 100 normal operations with Voice Alert

3) “APRS mute” – 144.39 simplex CTCSS xxx when you want quiet & another
VA is nearby

4) APRS event” – 144.99TX, 144.39RX for special events with an ALT-DIGI

5) APRS ALT” -144.39TX, 144.99RX when acting as an ALT digi

This way you can change between all of these modes without ever having
to touch a menu. Just change channels on the APRS band of the radio.

The point is to never turn the volume down on the APRSband. Why waste a
perfectly good radio channel that you are monitoring 100% of the time
anyway.

APRS Voice Alert is an order of magnitude better than monitoring “52”
while mobile, because unless you are calling CQ on 52 every minute, and
so is everyone else, you wont even hear each other in a crossing
situation. In contrast, APRS Voice Alert is “calling CQ” every minute
for you.

That’s why I like proportional pathing. Im calling CQ on Voice Alert
every minute, but only beaconing via the local digi once every 2 minutes
and only via 2 hops once every 4 minutes. But at the 1 minute local
rate, crossing drivers get good warning of the others presence.

See: http://aprs.org/VoiceAlert3.html

Bob, WB4APR

Al Wolfe
2014-06-27 00:20:47 UTC
Permalink
You all seem to be missing the point. Steve has pointed out another clueless
balloon operator, Adler, and yet people jump on Steve. Adler has been using
this abusive path for years. Maybe someone with some influence and stature
can convince Adler to change their path to something less intrusive.

Al, k9si
Mike Goldweber
2014-06-27 21:07:51 UTC
Permalink
My thinking is along the lines of Al's. There have been several discussions that I've seen on this mailing list where someone asks a question about the meaning of Wide-1/Wide-2 and its affect on the propagation of data. Outside of hardcore APRS circles, there doesn't seem to be the same level of understanding as this group has. Frankly, I don't think I understand it properly. I haven't been caught yet, because I haven't needed to transmit APRS data as these rogue balloonist have.

If many people are not using the settings properly, there are two reason that quickly come to mind:
1. It may be too complex, or
2. It isn't documented well.

As the individual how is working on his thesis has pointed out, there isn't a one-stop definitive stop for APRS version 1.1 standards...Sorry for forgetting your name...Further, when he asked for an explanation, he got many answers and some of them were really long explanations. I can assure you, the folks in my ARES group, who are just struggling to get some basic digital radio access working, aren't going to go to the trouble to thoroughly understand it to the same extent this group does. I suspect we aren't the only one either.

Perhaps in a future version of the standard a simpler way can be found to set up the controls for how data is propagated?

Just my two cents,
Mike Goldweber
KB3IXO

--------- Original Message --------- Subject: Re: [aprssig] Yet Another Clueless Balloon Launch
From: "Al Wolfe" <alw.k9si-***@public.gmane.org>
Date: 6/26/14 8:20 pm
To: aprssig-***@public.gmane.org

You all seem to be missing the point. Steve has pointed out another clueless
balloon operator, Adler, and yet people jump on Steve. Adler has been using
this abusive path for years. Maybe someone with some influence and stature
can convince Adler to change their path to something less intrusive.

Al, k9si


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Bob Burns W9BU
2014-06-27 23:36:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Goldweber
Perhaps in a future version of the standard a simpler way can be found
to set up the controls for how data is propagated?
Maybe I've been around it too long, but the concepts seem very simple to me.

1. If you don't need support from fill-in digipeaters, use WIDE2-1 or
WIDE2-2. This is generally true of stations in fixed locations.

2. If you want support from fill-in digipeaters, use WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 or
WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2. This is generally true of mobile APRS users.

3 In all cases, adding up the numbers after the hyphens is the number of
hops you are asking for. WIDE2-1 is one hop. WIDE2-2 is two hops.
WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 is two hops. WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 is three hops.

4 In all cases, asking for more hops increases the chances of your
packet being acted on by more digipeaters than the number of hops you
ask for because your packet won't be digipeated in a straight line.
Stephen Smith WA9LMF, the guy who started this thread, has a wonderful
animated .GIF on his web site that demonstrates how digipeater hops work.

http://wa8lmf.net/DigiPaths/NNNN-Digi-Demo.htm

The general problem that Stephen is complaining about is APRS users
asking for more hops than necessary.

Let's say you are a mobile APRS user running about 10 watts into a
quarter-wave antenna that's about 5 feet off the ground. Depending on
where you are, your initial packet may be heard by one, two, maybe three
digipeaters. If your hop request is reasonable, let's say
WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1, the number of digipeaters that will be triggered by
your packet will be manageable. Depending on the local APRS
infrastructure, your packet may be digipeated out 50 or 100 miles.

On the other hand, let's say you are a high-altitude balloon beaconing
away at 50,000 feet using WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2. Because your antenna is at
such a high elevation, a lot more digipeaters are going to hear you. A
lot more. Digipeaters over a radius of hundreds of miles are going to
hear your initial packet. And, because you asked for three hops, all
those digipeaters are going to digi your packet out to hundreds more
digipeaters.

To make this situation worse, let's say you are beaconing every 30
seconds. The result is APRS chaos over a very wide area.

At the root of this problem is the fact that many APRS users have no
idea how the APRS infrastructure works or their impact on that network.
Sure, the balloon Stephen complained about may be getting great position
data into the network. But, they are dominating the frequency to the
detriment of other users.

Bob...
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